What do you mean by top end?
Brazilian plane crash
- Thread starter robfosters
- Start date
What do you mean by top end?
standard range for an RJ85 is 1570nm
I honestly do not understand why they didn't go to bogota - it was behind them by 150miles , and they have flown near on route!
Surely if this emergency put him in the holding pattern, and he knew that he was low/run out of fuel he should have radioed straight away to say look I'm low/out of fuel, I can't maintain the holding pattern and need to land?
I understand the emergency probably meant he couldn't but at least informing the ground of his situation was the best option he had?
I know very little about how aircraft operate so probably got the complete wrong end of the stick though.
RIP to all those on board.
Soldato
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I don't understand why, even if it could make it by a small margin, why that risk would be taken when there was an option to avoid the risk altogether.
I don't mean to sound like a jerk I just can't think of another way to phrase this.
Are you sure about that because the fact they made it to the airport and completed several circuits of the holding pattern kinda implies it was within range.
The scary thing is I know a lot of pilots would have made the same decision with airlines breathing down their necks
Max range for this type of aircraft.
a certain irish flag carrier are known for it - a number of UK airports gave them a very stern telling off for frequent fuel emergency as they short loaded
METAR:
https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20161128-0
METAR:
https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20161128-0
I don't mean to sound like a jerk I just can't think of another way to phrase this.
Are you sure about that because the fact they made it to the airport and completed several circuits of the holding pattern kinda implies it was within range.
The scary thing is I know a lot of pilots would have made the same decision with airlines breathing down their necks
They didn't make it...?
They used all their journey fuel, all their diversion/go-around reserves just to get to within 8 miles of the field with 1 orbit. A factory fresh RJ85 may well have a range of 1600nm without extended tanks, but those old engines running in a storm certainly wont.
Reading up on PPRUNE, the plot thickens. Turns out that the airline had managed this route twice before the fatal crash - an accident waiting to happen
RIP
They made it to the airport with enough left for several orbits of the holding pattern. So the pilot was obviously correct in assessing he had enough fuel to make it but not correct in making the correct decision.
There's more to it that just that, flying with the wind reduces the amount of fuel needed to get to the destination, as does flying underweight, etc.
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My guess is when all is said and done, assuming the CVR/CDR don't show up anything unexpected when they arrive in the UK, that the investigators will slam the pilots decision making, slam the airline for putting pressure on him and slam the Brazilian aviation authority for denying their requested route.
From what I've read international regulations say that you should have at least 30mins worth of reserve fuel. I mean if every airline fueled just enough to complete the journey without taking into account landing delays I'm guessing that this would be a far more regular occurrence. Not to mention if the pilot has to traverse bad weather they'll use up fuel at a higher rate.
Looking at that journey map they circled for barely 13mins.
Looking at that journey map they circled for barely 13mins.
Is it normal that between 2:42 and 2:45 tracking is lost? or could that give validity to there being electrical problems?
Could possibly be the time between the power going out and the APU restoring it?
No fuel dumping provisions in the 146/RJ
- Fuel Qty indication is availible with only battery power. Infact, there's a momentary Fuel Qty pushbutton above the Engine Insturments that lets you check qty with battery off. It's a digital display on the bottom of the EIS.
- Pannier tanks can be installed and removed regardless if aircraft was delivered from factory with/without them. I suspect this one did not have any installed though, as it's a relatively big job and usually the entire (relatively small) operator community will get wind of someone looking for pannier tanks parts.
- Pannier(or auxillary) tanks are considered part of the wing tanks and thier qty indication is combined with wing tanks if installed. Also an annunciation if they are not empty on the overhead panel. Pannier tanks will feed into thier respective wing tanks.
- I highly doubt any of the belly aux tanks were installed in this aircraft. They are very rare and the only outfit that I know that uses them consistenly nowadays is the FAAM aircraft. Home
- Redundancy is king on this aircraft (it is British...). As detailed above a bit, electrical power is primarily derived from two 115/200 VAC generators on engines 1 and 4. The APU also drives an identical generator without the CSD. Each single AC generator is capable of completely powering the aircraft. In the Avro RJ, bus switching in the event of a generator failure is automatic (provided panel is configured correctly). There is no paralled AC buses in this aircraft. DC power is provided through two (optional third) Transformer Rectifier Units. 26VAC power through transformers for some avionics.
- Essential and Emergency (different buses on this aircraft) AC & DC power can be provided from: Battery (in conjunction with static inverter), and/or a hydraulically powered standby generator (Powered off green system - requires #3 engine-driven-hydraulic pump functioning. Isolates Green system)
- With emergency DC (battery) and AC (static inverter) only:
- Standby Horizon
- #1 VOR/ILS
- #1 COM
- #1 XPNDR
- Standby ASI and Altimeter (straight old pitot/static insturments - no DC draw)
- *I think* L/H landing light
- Pilot's Windshield wiper
- Yellow system DC pump (used to help extend yellow emergency extension jack on main gear, and pump up brake accumulator)
- Anti-skid (Anti-Skid sys. switch has to be placed in BATT position)
- EIS N2 indication
- EIS EGT indication
- FADEC continues to function (if engines are) through PMA's on the FADEC/HMU units on engines.
With Essential AC & DC (from Green system hydraulic stand-by generator)
- couple more engine indications
- More avionics
- normal cockpit lighting
- Battery is isolated w/ standby generator operating.
- Fuel system is a mix of complexity and simplicity.
Anhedral wings will make fuel in the wing tanks go outboard through mavity. mavity & jet transfer pumps flow fuel from wing tanks to Inboard and Outboard feed tanks in each wing. Inboard for #2/3 engine - Outboard for #1/4. AC pumps in each feed tank provide jet-transfer pump pressure and pressure fuel to engines. Engines will suction-feed fine from feed-tanks though as well.
Center-tank fuel will flow into wing tanks. Floats in each feed tank will annuciate a low fuel condition if any tank is less than full (~600 lbs each).
- In the event of an AC electrical failure, standby hydraulically driven fuel pumps can provide fuel pressure.
- Primary flight controls with exception of rudder are completely manual with flying/servo tabs.
- Loss of yellow hydraulics means no roll spoilers, and some ground spoilers
- Loss of green means no speed-brake, other ground spoilers, and primary gear extension.
- Flaps can run half-speed off a single (yellow or green) hydraulic system.
- Alternate gear extention is mavity, with an emergency-yellow assister-jack for the main gear that may be powered from Yellow DC pump.
It is typical operator method to have APU running below 10,000 ft, providing bleed air for AC packs and pressurization. Frees up bleed air from the anemic engines (LF507). The APU Gen switch will usually be left on, although it will not be on either bus. In event of Gen failure with APU Gen on, APU gen will power the failed bus. APU running does jump into your fuel usage a bit though too...
Having said all this.....this redundancy is very suspect when you have no fuel....
Taken from PPRUNE
Good point lmao