Angela Merkel and her decisions

[robgmun]

Exactly so surely purely for safety they should all be outright banned if we ban the burka.

A motorcycle helmet is a legal requirement when riding a motorcycle and it's there to protect the rider. And it's banned in most public places, i tend to see people take off their helmet as soon as they dismount their bikes.

A full face vale is not a requirement in any walk of like, it's not even a requirement in Islam. And is more often than not forced upon the woman by the husband/family of the girl from a young age. You're trying to be clever and comparing an apple with a fish

 

[Arazi]

Who?

There is a quote in poker:

"Look Around the Table; If You Can’t See the Sucker, You’re It"

 

[tom_e]

You're trying to be clever and comparing an apple with a fish

No I'm not which is specifically why I didn't comment on the oppression side only the perceived safety improvement from banning one type of face covering and why I also mentioned other coverings that have nothing to do with them being a legal requirement or there for safety reasons.

 

[robgmun]

No I'm not which is specifically why I didn't comment on the oppression side only the perceived safety improvement from banning one type of face covering and why I also mentioned other coverings that have nothing to do with them being a legal requirement or there for safety reasons.

As already said, a motorcycle helmet is already banned in a lot of public places a virtually a requirement to be taken off inside all buildings. I want to see a similar restriction on the full face vile as it's harms society. Harms society in what way i hear you ask. Segregation... it stops women effectively communicating with anyone outside of their community.

I have spoken to loads girls in hijabs, most of them are surprisingly very affable and sweet. But i am yet to bump into and speak to anyone in a full face vile because they tend to avoid contact, run around with their kids in tow and tend to barge past you as if they have some god given right of way.

 

[tom_e]

As already said, a motorcycle helmet is already banned in a lot of public places a virtually a requirement to be taken off inside all buildings. I want to see a similar restriction on the full face vile as it's harms society. Harms society in what way i hear you ask. Segregation... it stops women effectively communicating with anyone outside of their community.

I have spoken to loads girls in hijabs, most of them are surprisingly very affable and sweet. But i am yet to bump into and speak to anyone in a full face vile because they tend to avoid contact, run around with their kids in tow and tend to barge past you as if they have some god given right of way.

And as I've already said I didn't just mention helmets. Shops and other private properties that make me remove my helmet are more than welcome to ask people to remove their head coverings if they feel it poses a security risk but my choice of headwear that completely covers my face is perfectly fine to walk down the street in no ones going to be fining or arresting me and at that point it's not a legal requirement or a safety issue.

Are the women in full face veils like that because they wear a full face veil or because that's just the way they've been brought up within their community?

Will making them remove the veil change their outlook on the world outside their community and make them more open? Or more resentful that they feel they're being singled out and having their rights eroded?

 

[hornetstinger]

And as I've already said I didn't just mention helmets. Shops and other private properties that make me remove my helmet are more than welcome to ask people to remove their head coverings if they feel it poses a security risk but my choice of headwear that completely covers my face is perfectly fine to walk down the street in no ones going to be fining or arresting me.

Are the women in full face veils like that because they wear a full face veil or because that's just the way they've been brought up within their community?

Will making them remove the veil change their outlook on the world outside their community and make them more open? Or more resentful that they feel they're being singled out and having their rights eroded?

Removing the veil gives them rights.

It's like saying forcing slaves to remove their slave collars, but the slaves resent that because they see it as a security blanket- their society deems slaves collars are the correct thing to wear.

Regardless Islam is not compatible with the west.

 

[robgmun]

Will making them remove the veil change their outlook on the world outside their community and make them more open? Or more resentful that they feel they're being singled out and having their rights eroded?

I firmly believe it will open up their world and the community they live in, they may get a bit of a culture shock but after a bit they'll come to realise what they're missing out on.

 

[StriderX]

I firmly believe it will open up their world and the community they live in, they may get a bit of a culture shock but after a bit they'll come to realise what they're missing out on.

A bit can mean anything, regardless this will be used to justify more bombings/shootings/vehicular attacks pretty damn easily.

 

[robgmun]

A bit can mean anything, regardless this will be used to justify more bombings/shootings/vehicular attacks pretty damn easily.

That's a huge leap in logic there!!! Not sure how!?

 

[StriderX]

That's a huge leap in logic there!!! Not sure how!?

How?

Any attack on islam, regardless of how small (this burka ban) is an offence as dire as drawing the prophet in some peoples eyes (terrorists/extremists/morons).

I'm not saying we should be afraid, i wish they would have dealt with this in their own backyard, but we shall be their backyard seemingly and that comes with the cost of liberalisation... which is never a calm era.

 

[prosk]

That's a huge leap in logic there!!! Not sure how!?

In that it will be perceived as an oppression of their culture and may cause a reaction.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

Will it even remove their veil?

Or will it more likely cause them to balance fear of their oppressors with fear of breaking the law. The balance will of course depend on how you decide to enforce the ban. Lets put aside the stupid amount of resources required to make it effective and look at punishments of the offenders:

You punish people for wearing them by fining them. - Yes a great idea, lets fine all of those who feel the most oppressed and therefore wear it despite the law. Yes free the oppressed by oppressing them financially using the law!

Fine their husbands/brothers whatever. This surely wont work, the women will tell you that THEY choose to wear it not do it because of the men. Even if they do not feel that way, what other answer will you get from someone who has felt so inclined to hide their face their whole adult life. Do you really think fining the men they blame will be a worthwhile trade for anything they feel they might receive due to getting their oppressors fined?



There are two sentiments to this law. I agree with the first being a law to reduce the oppression of women. The second sentiment is more of a 'FUUUUU Islam' (yes yes i know, not anything to actually do with religion but sentiments can be be born from misinformation).

Despite whatever good intentions people who support this law have, i simply cant see it being effective and will only serve to harm those who wear them. either through fines or through the wrath of their oppressors. I may not be able to think of any effective way to deal with the oppression but i can say this this way does more harm than good as far as womens rights/safety go.

 

[a1ex2001]

Not sure why middle class white people in modern free democratic countries are so scared of veils surely there are better things that our governments could focus on like the wealth gap in society etc or maybe it's just me that thinks racial hatred is a convenient side line to distract people......

 

[Amp34]

I'm pretty sure she isn't wildly popular in Germany like she once was or am I mistaken.

http://m.dw.com/en/nationwide-german-poll-merkels-popularity-dips-to-five-year-low/a-19521704

Shes not as popular as she used to be but she's not doing too badly for someone that has been in power for 11 years and three terms.

Should she run again? Well the length of service runs against her in many ways - for example there is a reason many countries have maximum terms on their leaders.

 

[bobbyspangles]

Why should it be banned though? As long as it is worn through free will I honestly don;t see any problems that can't be surpassed by a bit of common sense on both sides.

If I chose to wear a balaclava about town and wasn't up to any wrongdoing, what possible reason would someone have to want me to remove it other than they didn't like me wearing it.

I'm fairly sure if you tried that you wouldn't get very far in many shops before being asked to remove it or leave the store. Wrongdoing or not.

 

[Amp34]

To what purpose though?

You can talk about it being used as a tool of oppression or whatever, at least that argument can hold some water but lets not pretend that banning it will improve security.

There are positives with doing away with it but an introduction of the ban will cause more friction and will result in a law which alienates one group and is not enforced due to 'complications'.

Or you end up with a law against all religious symbology and Christians get grumpy about it to as they end up included. Then you have a fairly large section of society that can't wear what they want for no real reason.

 

[p4radox]

There is a quote in poker:

"Look Around the Table; If You Can’t See the Sucker, You’re It"

Seriously? You're suggesting that something I've posted is going to get this thread closed? Stop hiding behind vagaries be specific - show me what I've said that's against the rules.

 

[adolf hamster]

I can get it in airports/places of work/official institutions.

but surely what people choose to wear (provided that it's something and not naked) in public is their own prerogative?

if they're going to ban religious headdresses/clothing in public then it would really need to be comprehensive, turbans, skullcaps, crucifixes, habits etc will all need to go too.

otherwise it's just targeted anti-muslim law, and lets face it we're meant to be better than that in the west.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

we're meant to be better than that in the west.

Yeah because France has never introduced certain measures at beaches and stuff

INB4 'Covering of xxx and yyy, has nothing to do with religion blah blah blah.

... The second sentiment is more of a 'FUUUUU Islam' (yes yes i know, not anything to actually to do with religion but sentiments can be be born from misinformation)

 

[Amp34]

As already said, a motorcycle helmet is already banned in a lot of public places a virtually a requirement to be taken off inside all buildings. I want to see a similar restriction on the full face vile as it's harms society. Harms society in what way i hear you ask. Segregation... it stops women effectively communicating with anyone outside of their community.

I have spoken to loads girls in hijabs, most of them are surprisingly very affable and sweet. But i am yet to bump into and speak to anyone in a full face vile because they tend to avoid contact, run around with their kids in tow and tend to barge past you as if they have some god given right of way.

If someone doesn't want to interact with society, or with you* then what's the problem? As others have said there is a difference between real security concerns (such as in banks and at airports), where there are generally already rule regarding full face veils and walking around on the street.

Yes, there is an element of oppression with some that wear full face veils, but just banning them outright is not the way to go. For many it would be akin to banning t-shirts and tops on women, forcing them to walk around topless. We don't see it as the same, but people from certain parts of the world, having grown up with certain cultural norms would.**

You're probably never going to persuade first generation immigrants from certain areas of the world, especially if they are older, to stop wearing a veil, but the likelihood is their children growing up in the west won't wear one so it's a self solving problem using our education systems and cultures.

*thats not a slight at you, thats a general "you"

**actually, ironically it could well be construed as a similar battle to the free the nipple campaign, where women are fighting for equality with men for their upper halves - I.e. In many countries (and by that I mean western countries like the US and UK) women aren't allowed to walk around topless, even if they want to. Why can't we just let people wear (or not wear) what they want?