Disability benefits: PIPs should be for 'really disabled'

Fishbait · 26 Feb 2017 at 23:25

dowie said:
Could do with a cap on payments limited to two kids tbh... Means test it too so it only gets paid to the very poorest and start giving out contraception/family planning advice after their first kid.

GIDS was on about this years ago, don't know if it went ahead, but dare say they'll get around to it.

"Child-related benefits may be 'capped' at two children"

dowie · 26 Feb 2017 at 23:27

Cromulent said:
Sorry clinical was the wrong word. I shouldn't have used that. What I should have said was an anxiety disorder. It isn't as simple as just being a bit anxious. There are more diagnostic criteria than that. But I do agree with you. It depends on how people act as to how they progress. Although it isn't as easy as people make out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anxiety_disorder

Well if you're talking about an anxiety disorder then I'll point out they we're back to where we were previously - they're very common.

Fishbait · 26 Feb 2017 at 23:28

UK welfare reforms have led to "grave and systematic violations" of disabled people's rights, a UN inquiry has said.

Changes to benefits "disproportionately affected" disabled people, the UN Committee on the Rights of Disabled Persons (CRPD) found.

The UK was the first to be investigated under a UN convention it has been signed up to since 2007.

But the government said it "strongly refuted" the committee's findings and its "offensive" view of disability.

I remember Cameron saying about this & the bedroom tax, that if the UN found the UK guilty (which it has) that he wouldn't accept the results. GIDS was just the same, despite his crocodile tears before he resigned.

diamount · 26 Feb 2017 at 23:30

Only corpses will be eligible soon.

Cromulent · 26 Feb 2017 at 23:30

dowie said:
Well if you're talking about an anxiety disorder then I'll point out they we're back to where we were previously - they're very common.

So because something is common you shouldn't have help via benefits? I guess we should stop giving people with terminal cancer benefits since it is so common then?

dowie · 26 Feb 2017 at 23:33

Energize said:
What an absurd statement. Most people do not experience a diagnosable mental health condition such as generalised anxiety disorder or panic disorder, both of which can leave someone unable to work, drive or potentially even go out and do general every day activities, trying to go back into work can greatly worsen these conditions.

Well you're wrong, maybe it is a result of the stigma of mental health conditions but they're incredibly common:

US study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15939837

About half of Americans will meet the criteria for a DSM-IV disorder sometime in their life, with first onset usually in childhood or adolescence. Interventions aimed at prevention or early treatment need to focus on youth.

UK Study looking at a snapshot, not lifetime rate:
http://content.digital.nhs.uk/pubs/psychiatricmorbidity07

in 2007 nearly one person in four (23.0 per cent) in England had at least one psychiatric disorder and 7.2 per cent had two or more disorders

It might well be underestimated:

http://neuroskeptic.blogspot.co.uk/2009/09/most-people-experience-mental-illness.html

50% of the Dunedin prospective cohort reported at least one "anxiety disorder", 41%reported "depression", 32% confessed to "alcohol dependence" and 18% to "cannabis dependence". (Those were the only conditions studied.) For some reason, we're not told how much overlap there was, but even assuming there was a lot, well over half of all the cohort will have experienced at least one disorder. If the overlap was low, it could be almost all of them. And remember, this is just up to age 32. And there still may have been some forgetting...

Compared to the retrospective studies, these rates are all about twice as high. What does this mean for psychiatry?

First, it suggests that retrospective studies, which are by far the most common, are flawed. People just tend to forget a lot of "mental illness" when asked to remember across the lifetime. More evidence for this comes from the fact that the ratio of past-year to lifetime reported disorders was 38% in the prospective study compared to about 60% in the retrospective ones.

dowie · 26 Feb 2017 at 23:35

Cromulent said:
So because something is common you shouldn't have help via benefits? I guess we should stop giving people with terminal cancer benefits since it is so common then?

When double digit %s of the population have these things then yes, people need help dealing with anxiety, depression etc.. but most people persevere through it. I don't see why it requires any enhanced benefits above the usual JSA/housing benefit etc.. for those sufferers who are jobless.

Cromulent · 26 Feb 2017 at 23:37

dowie said:
It might well be underestimated:

http://neuroskeptic.blogspot.co.uk/2009/09/most-people-experience-mental-illness.html

Are you really quoting a blog called Neuro Skeptic as a source? You might as well just quote the Daily Mail. Also the chances of someone forgetting that they suffer from proper depression or anxiety is just about zero. If you forgot about it you didn't have it.

Energize · 26 Feb 2017 at 23:38

I'm not talking about a transient diagnosis of anxiety, (using DSM criteria you could pretty much put 100% of the population in it it's so broad) I'm talking about the chronic severe illness that disability benefits would be paid for. No one is being paid benefits because of a low grade GAD diagnosis.

Cromulent · 26 Feb 2017 at 23:41

Energize said:
I'm not talking about a transient diagnosis of anxiety, (using DSM criteria you could pretty much put 100% of the population in it it's so broad) I'm talking about the chronic severe illness that disability benefits would be paid for. No one is being paid benefits because of a low grade GAD diagnosis.

I'm pretty sure the Daily Mail told me that you can get benefits for having a hangover.

dowie · 26 Feb 2017 at 23:42

Cromulent said:
Are you really quoting a blog called Neuro Skeptic as a source? You might as well just quote the Daily Mail. Also the chances of someone forgetting that they suffer from proper depression or anxiety is just about zero. If you forgot about it you didn't have it.

I've also quoted a couple of studies that you seem to have selectively ignored. Anxiety and depression are very common and plenty of people will experience them, how they deal with it is another matter.

Cromulent · 26 Feb 2017 at 23:44

dowie said:
I've also quoted a couple of studies that you seem to have selectively ignored. Anxiety and depression are very common and plenty of people will experience them, how they deal with it is another matter.

And I'll come back to the point I made that you ignored. A lot of people have terminal cancer. Should we stop giving them benefits? Or what about terminal AIDS sufferers?

dowie · 26 Feb 2017 at 23:47

Cromulent said:
And I'll come back to the point I made that you ignored. A lot of people have terminal cancer. Should we stop giving them benefits? Or what about terminal AIDS sufferers?

If you're coming to the end of your life then I don't think so.

Someone with AIDS and some cancers can work. AIDS can be well managed for years these days AFAIK.

Cromulent · 26 Feb 2017 at 23:59

The argument over saving money on disability benefits is stupid anyway because such a small amount of national spending is being spent on benefits. Only 0.8% of national income is being spent on benefits. How about saving money on something else that would be much easier to save money. How about sacking some of the many layers of middle management in the NHS for instance and using that money to hire more doctors who might be able to help people with mental health problems? State pension is by FAR the biggest cost to the benefits system. Lets stop paying state pension to wealthy people. That would save a significant amount of money that could be spent on disability benefits.

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/hea...-benefit-claimants-have-a-mental-illness.html

Energize · 26 Feb 2017 at 23:59

dowie said:
I've also quoted a couple of studies that you seem to have selectively ignored. Anxiety and depression are very common and plenty of people will experience them, how they deal with it is another matter.

What you don't seem to be understanding is that there is a difference between low grade anxiety that a person can function with, and severe anxiety which causes disability. Someone who is losing consciousness due to panic attacks for example can not drive, nor can they hold a job. These disabled people are the ones we are talking about here, they need benefits.

dowie · 27 Feb 2017 at 00:03

Energize said:
What you don't seem to be understanding is that there is a difference between low grade anxiety that a person can function with, and severe anxiety which causes disability. Someone who is losing consciousness due to panic attacks for example can not drive, nor can they hold a job. These disabled people are the ones we are talking about here, they need benefits.

Losing consciousness is incredibly rare and doesn't mean you can't have a job. Frankly it is pessimistic to write people off and the whole defeatist attitude some have toward these things is perhaps part of the reason some people don't break the cycle.

No one is saying they shouldn't have benefits! I'm simply saying they shouldn't be receiving PIP and instead should be on JSA if unemployed.

djshauny1 · 27 Feb 2017 at 00:23

dowie said:
When double digit %s of the population have these things then yes, people need help dealing with anxiety, depression etc.. but most people persevere through it. I don't see why it requires any enhanced benefits above the usual JSA/housing benefit etc.. for those sufferers who are jobless.

Anxiety disorder is completely different than just your usual anxiety/depression.

dowie · 27 Feb 2017 at 00:27

djshauny1 said:
Anxiety disorder is completely different than just your usual anxiety/depression.

I'm talking about anxiety disorder, people diagnosed with anxiety, depression etc.. look back at the links posted - these things are extremely common.

Cromulent · 27 Feb 2017 at 01:35

dowie said:
I'm talking about anxiety disorder, people diagnosed with anxiety, depression etc.. look back at the links posted - these things are extremely common.

The only link which I am going to use that you posted is this one since it is the only trust worthy source that is applicable to the UK:

http://content.digital.nhs.uk/pubs/psychiatricmorbidity07

As you rightly quoted it says 23% of people suffer from some mental health illness in their life. The question is what percentage of that 23% even get disability benefits? I think you would be surprised. The number is probably a lot lower than you think. You seem to be assuming that 100% of that 23% get disability benefits and that just isn't true.

According to this source:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...le/452513/statistical-summary-august-2015.pdf

2.53 million people are on ESA / IB and 3.13 million are on DLA and that is for both mental and physical health which is a tiny proportion of that 23% so your claim that disability benefits are easy to get if you have anxiety or depression is just fault. Furthermore the vast majority of people with depression or anxiety are not on any benefits at all.

Rilot · 27 Feb 2017 at 06:48

I'm not sure why people think PIP is so easy to get. Take me for example; I have Multiple Sclerosis, am mildly autistic, and suffer from crippling anxiety. I don't qualify even though in the eyes of the law, two of those make me officially disabled.
I went through it last year and wasn't even close to qualifying with the points I got.