Engine starts, then dies and is then very, very hard to restart, What is going on?

Soldato
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Now, this isn't my car.

But it is a phenomena I have come across on many occasions. If you have experienced it you will know exactly what I am talking about.

Basically, on a cold start, the engine will fire and then almost immediately splutter to a halt. On attempting to re-start it is noticeable that the starter motor sound is very different (Instead of the ChugChugChug, you just get a constant whine) This is because there are no compressions on any cylinder.

The problem is that the valves are no longer seating properly.

Typically, this happens if the previous start only involved the engine running briefly (Say, to back away from a garage door to gain access, that sort of thing)

Some engines seem particularly vulnerable to this (1990's Jag V8's were one of them)

My advise is do not start an engine unless you intend to warm it up. Allow it to run for at least 5 minutes before switching off again if you want to avoid this problem.

Extended cranking and some fancy footwork can get the engine going again (First one cylinder, then two and eventially if you can get it to run once revved up the problem will clear and once warm it will be as if it had never happened)

Of course, it will flood while doing this so you also have to do stuff like disconnect injectors or short out the temp sensor to foll the ecm into thinking the engine is warm and so on (You may have to clear fault codes that this action might generate)

Of course on many modern cars with push button start, you will not be able to do this so I imagine if this happens on any car where you do not have direct control of the starter you will be royally stuffed. Fortunately I have not come across any push button starts with this issue....Yet!

Now, there are various theories as to what is happening here.

I would be interested to know if anybody here has any thoughts on the matter.

(Or indeed how one might possibly start an engine with this issue with a push button start short of a cylinder head strip down! :eek: :rolleyes: )
 
On Vauxhalls (and I expect probably others) the ECU has a clear flood mode activated by cranking the engine with the throttle wide open.

I know this as I ended up calling the RAC out to the Zafira on my driveway, after I had moved it forward forward slightly (so I could wash it), and then it wouldn't start later when I came to it.

The Vauxhall engines are particularly prone to flooding however, and the RAC man advised the same as you, to leave it running for 5 minutes or so (until it comes off fast idle)


ref:
http://workshop-manuals.com/vauxhal...iption_and_operation/fuel_system_description/

(see the bit Clear Flood Mode)
 
On Vauxhalls (and I expect probably others) the ECU has a clear flood mode activated by cranking the engine with the throttle wide open.

I know this as I ended up calling the RAC out to the Zafira on my driveway, after I had moved it forward forward slightly (so I could wash it), and then it wouldn't start later when I came to it.

The Vauxhall engines are particularly prone to flooding however, and the RAC man advised the same as you, to leave it running for 5 minutes or so (until it comes off fast idle)


ref:
http://workshop-manuals.com/vauxhal...iption_and_operation/fuel_system_description/

(see the bit Clear Flood Mode)

Unfortunately WOT will not clear the "No Compression" problem

You need to use a light throttle and "Tickle" it if the engine attempts to fire and bring the revs up to 2-3000 rpm as soon as it catches

It can take a long time, 30-60 seconds cranking, possibly with several attempts, in order to get the engines to fire when this happens (A tow will also work, except, obviously, with an Auto, but I do not like doing this because people are prats and most do not know how to be towed)

Initially I thought it was to do with sticking hydraulic tappets (Or tappets that had got pumped up with viscous cold oil thus holding the valves open slightly)

But it also happens on non-hydralic tappet cars. I think it is deposits being washed off the back of the valve by the fuel from the injectors and accumulating on the valve face causing a poor seal.

All the time the engine is running, this isn't a problem since the speed at which everything is happening means that the poor sealing isn't really a problem for running and the deposits will clear once the engine warms up. But in the case of a cold start after previous brief start, the deposits are still there and the seal is sufficiently poor that at cranking speed it is not possible to get compression high enough for the engine to fire and run.

Of course, this means that this is not an issue with diesel engines, nor is it an issue on petrol engines with direct injection (They have other, really quite serious, problems, jusk ask any BMW Mini owner! :p )

But, as I said, If this happens on one of the new fancy "Push Button" cars. I suspect that you will be screwed. I doubt if you could keep it cranking with a non-start condition for the necessary time to get it to run.

I guess the best protection is to use good quality fuel with a decent additives package and to avoid starting the engine unless you really mean to use it. (Which is good practice anyway really)
 
Now, this isn't my car.

But it is a phenomena I have come across on many occasions. If you have experienced it you will know exactly what I am talking about.

Basically, on a cold start, the engine will fire and then almost immediately splutter to a halt. On attempting to re-start it is noticeable that the starter motor sound is very different (Instead of the ChugChugChug, you just get a constant whine) This is because there are no compressions on any cylinder.

(Or indeed how one might possibly start an engine with this issue with a push button start short of a cylinder head strip down! :eek: :rolleyes: )

It's not suffering from a lack of compression, it's because your starter motor's gummed up/knackered and the pinion isn't engaging with the ring gear. That's why it seemingly spins with no resistance.

Otherwise, this is a non-issue if the car is in good order - even with older carburetted engines.
 
It's not suffering from a lack of compression, it's because your starter motor's gummed up/knackered and the pinion isn't engaging with the ring gear. That's why it seemingly spins with no resistance.

Otherwise, this is a non-issue if the car is in good order - even with older carburetted engines.

No, No, No

This is loss of compression.

I CAN tell the difference you know.

You have obviously not experienced what I am talking about. ;)

Edit

What prompted me to post this in the first place, was that my neighbour had this happen to her last night. She had previously just started the car to move it forward a couple of feet so she could open the tailgate. Fortunately I was able to restart it reasonably easily. This is most definitely NOT a starter motor issue.
 
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What prompted me to post this in the first place, was that my neighbour had this happen to her last night. She had previously just started the car to move it forward a couple of feet so she could open the tailgate. Fortunately I was able to restart it reasonably easily. This is most definitely NOT a starter motor issue.

No it's a flooding issue resulting in bore wash that then reduces compression. It's absolutely not a "valves won't seat" issue.

Your mention of Jags would bring you to something like:
https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/threads/nice-one-jaguar-thanks-ever-so-much.18348530/

Flooding, but so severe that a drop of oil in each cylinder is needed to help restore compression
 
Can't understand why flooding would cause valve seating issues or how bore wash could reduce compression? Every single car I've had will flood to some extent if you cold start it, move it across the drive and shut it off but you generally only lose 1 cylinder and it will come back up pretty quickly once running.
 
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