The NHS cut down on prescriptions deemed to have low clinical value

Avenged7Fold · 29 Mar 2017 at 08:34

Energize said:
Didn't realise you could buy class A drugs like fentanyl over the counter...

Since when were travel vaccines considered "low clinical value"? Hepatitis A & B vaccines are still listed as recommended vaccines for otherwise healthy people on the NHS websites.

There are alternatives to fentanyl, few are as strong but you wouldn't have medical professionals recommend its removal from prescriptions if there was no alternatives. It happens to be a popular recreational drug in many parts of the world and it is the official branded stuff probably obtained from hospitals that gets sold to people, so they may have thrown that into the mix when looking at the pros and cons of fentanyl.

As for vaccines, if you have the money to travel, you can afford to pay for your own vaccines...

Earlier in the thread people made a reference to the vaccine thread i started. Well i still think vaccines should be mandatory and that travel vaccines self funded. There is no reason to risk the health of you and those around you for a few quid and a holiday when you can afford to spend your own money.

Energize · 29 Mar 2017 at 08:41

Avenged7Fold said:
There are alternatives to fentanyl, few are as strong but you wouldn't have medical professionals recommend its removal from prescriptions if there was no alternatives. It happens to be a popular recreational drug in many parts of the world and it is the official branded stuff probably obtained from hospitals that gets sold to people, so they may have thrown that into the mix when looking at the pros and cons of fentanyl.

Do you realise how much heroin is used in hospitals?! That is a terrible, non-medically based argument for not prescribing a drug.

And there are not really any cheap alternatives to transdermal/sublingual fentanyl.

As for vaccines, if you have the money to travel, you can afford to pay for your own vaccines...

The "travel vaccines" aren't just given to travelers that's my point. Hep A and Hep B are recommended vaccines.

Furthermore your view on affordability to patients is irrelevant. How much do you think the antiviral drugs to treat those diseases cost to the NHS?

Avenged7Fold · 29 Mar 2017 at 08:48

If they are not considered 'just travel vaccines' then they will still be available on recommendation from your GP. The affordability is only irrelevant if you believe that enough people will refuse to these vaccines because they do not come free.

The points you make are that they do not have low clinical value or alternatives and the people who recommended this list to be no longer prescribed think they do.

Dis86 · 29 Mar 2017 at 08:59

Affordability to patients is entirely relevant. Hep a and b aren't common in the UK.
The main way you're likely to catch them is through foreign travel and as said if you are choosing to go to certain countries you should be paying for your vaccinations. Yes treatment for muppets that don't get vaccinated is expensive but we need to get away from the idea that the NHS is there to wipe your backside after you mess up. People should primarily be taking responsibility for their own health and wellbeing.
I accept entirely however that many people can't be trusted to do so and I'd certainly argue that they shouldn't receive treatment on the NHS if it can be proven that their own neglectful choices led to illness or injury.

mrochester · 29 Mar 2017 at 11:31

dowie said:
not just fat people but people who neglect their bodies in general - smokers, heavy drinkers, druggies etc..

lots of heart disease, diabetes and various cancer cases are avoidable and a result of people's lifestyle choices

And you would need a moral police force to police that, I.e., impossible.

dowie · 29 Mar 2017 at 13:20

mrochester said:
And you would need a moral police force to police that, I.e., impossible.

Police what?

mrochester · 29 Mar 2017 at 14:00

dowie said:
Police what?

Whether people are doing 'bad things' to their bodies.

dowie · 29 Mar 2017 at 14:31

mrochester said:
Whether people are doing 'bad things' to their bodies.

where has that come from? who proposed we 'police' that?

mrochester · 29 Mar 2017 at 14:35

dowie said:
where has that come from? who proposed we 'police' that?

No one.

Tefal · 29 Mar 2017 at 15:37

Dis86 said:
Affordability to patients is entirely relevant. Hep a and b aren't common in the UK.
The main way you're likely to catch them is through foreign travel

Heb B is fairly common.

Just walk into your local clinic and tell them you have group sex or are gay/bi and you will be strongly recomended to get vaccinated

Tefal · 29 Mar 2017 at 15:38

mrochester said:
And you would need a moral police force to police that, I.e., impossible.

I dunno instead of taxing sugar id happily see an increased NI band for everyone over say 35% body fat.

Dis86 · 29 Mar 2017 at 15:39

Tefal said:
Heb B is fairly common.

Just walk into your local clinic and tell them you have group sex or are gay/bi and you will be strongly recomended to get vaccinated

Yeah...no. again though that's a lifestyle choice. It's (probably!) Not the norm.

Tefal · 29 Mar 2017 at 15:40

Dis86 said:
Yeah...no. again though that's a lifestyle choice. It's (probably!) Not the norm.

Being gay is a lifestyle choice? O.o

Avenged7Fold · 29 Mar 2017 at 15:41

I would say having unprotected group sex is a lifestyle choice regardless of preference

dowie · 29 Mar 2017 at 15:42

Tefal said:
Being gay is a lifestyle choice? O.o

I think he's referring to the group sex and/or the gay lifestyle re: multiple partners that leads to the higher risk

Tefal · 29 Mar 2017 at 15:45

Avenged7Fold said:
I would say having unprotected group sex is a lifestyle choice regardless of preference

Where did unpeotected come from?

And the group sex was just to provide an example thata straight person could relate to

Tefal · 29 Mar 2017 at 15:46

dowie said:
I think he's referring to the group sex and/or the gay lifestyle re: multiple partners that leads to the higher risk

Agian where are you getting this "life style" qualifier from?

If you where gay tomorrow by some magic everything else about your "life style" was the same as it is now. Your next trip to the GUM clinic you would be advised to have the hep B vaccine.

Avenged7Fold · 29 Mar 2017 at 15:49

Whether you have protected or unprotected sex and who with (people you can trust/not trust) certainly are lifestyle choices and are completely relevant when discussing the risks and morality involved of no longer offering hep B vaccinations for free.

Tefal · 29 Mar 2017 at 15:54

Avenged7Fold said:
Whether you have protected or unprotected sex and who with (people you can trust/not trust) certainly are lifestyle choices and are completely relevant when discussing the risks and morality involved of no longer offering hep B vaccinations for free.

But you added in unprotected to make it seem worse.

Youd be advised to get hep B vaccine even if youve never had unprotected sex in your life.

But if you like we'll simplify it back down for you

"Go to the gum clinic tomorrow tell them you are a homosexual, you will be advised to get the hep B vaccine"

Avenged7Fold · 29 Mar 2017 at 16:00

I added the unprotected part because Dis has been discussing refusing free treatment for people who neglect their health due to poor lifestyle choices.

As much as you want to put him on trial for saying that lifestyle choices result in an increase risk of getting Hep B, he is right that the risk can be minimised regardless of what the clinic says to you. Or will you refuse to admit that a rubber can help a guy or girl out for the sake of an internet grilling...

If i was writing those clinic recommendations, i would recommend most vaccines for everyone but not for free for anyone that has the means to pay for them.