Innovation vs Rebranding

[shankly1985]

With more Rebrandeons incoming, I take a look at the history and reasons behind graphics card rebrands.

Interesting Recap

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

Quite interesting.

What I got from that was:
AMD did the first rebrand.
Nvidia took that to the next level by basically rebranding a rebrand and in the process held back advancements in DirectX.
AMD mocked this rebranding instead of innovating approach from Nvidia in their advertising for the 4000 series cards.
AMD then proceded to rebrand almost every generation from the 7000 series onwards.
AMD didn't produce a high-end card in the 400 series range.

Interesting to see what AMD do next, surely they can't just release the RX580 and RX570 (which are apparently disappointing) this generation can they?

 

[TheRealDeal]

Quite interesting.

What I got from that was:
AMD did the first rebrand.
Nvidia took that to the next level by basically rebranding a rebrand and in the process held back advancements in DirectX.
AMD mocked this rebranding instead of innovating approach from Nvidia in their advertising for the 4000 series cards.
AMD then proceded to rebrand almost every generation from the 7000 series onwards.
AMD didn't produce a high-end card in the 400 series range.

Interesting to see what AMD do next, surely they can't just release the RX580 and RX570 (which are apparently disappointing) this generation can they?

Well no they are releasing Vega in the next 2 months. Polaris will be 580 downwards with higher clock speeds.Polaris is still pretty current anyhow where next gen api's are concerned.

 

[shankly1985]

The assassin's creed removing dx10. 1 is just one of many reasons I dislike Nvidia.

Least with AMD they keep brings new technology and trying to push the PC gaming industry forward. While Nvidia just care about cash and cash only.

 

[DarrenM343]

The assassin's creed removing dx10. 1 is just one of many reasons I dislike Nvidia.

Least with AMD they keep brings new technology and trying to push the PC gaming industry forward. While Nvidia just care about cash and cash only.

AMD so good at pushing PC gaming forward they don't yet have a card that is as good as a 10 month old 1080 let alone with TXP, Ti .
I feel AMD/NV are just as good/bad as each other, just different ways of doing it. After all, they (AMD)have shareholder too who they HAVE to please. If they found themselves in the same situation as NV or Intel, their products would be as expensive too but they're the underdog so have to win market share through cheaper prices/products and marketting. If one day they get back on top we'll see then if peoples view changes. Leaders will naturally try to shape things around them too.

For every reason someone gives to dislike AMD or NV, someone else could give a reason for dislike the other I'm sure .
Personally I want the best performance at the moment and whoever offers that will get my money although I admit I prefer NV products and that's down to various experiences of AMD products over the years (reason number 1 - ha )

 

[arc@css]

Least with AMD they keep brings new technology and trying to push the PC gaming industry forward. While Nvidia just care about cash and cash only.

To a limited extent I agree, however, it seems to me that while they're great at marketing or announcing some new tech, they do also drop the ball some of the time (e.g. TrueAudio). Despite preferring AMD's image/overall 'appearance', I do think Nvidia are more consistent with their implementation/delivery of new technologies.

 

[smogsy]

To a limited extent I agree, however, it seems to me that while they're great at marketing or announcing some new tech, they do also drop the ball some of the time (e.g. TrueAudio). Despite preferring AMD's image/overall 'appearance', I do think Nvidia are more consistent with their implementation/delivery of new technologies.

dont forget the following

1) AMD crying they cannot optimize for X & 2 weeks later having optimizations out.
2) Releasing Products that are not ready or Not supported by More than a few Titles, Eg True Audio,Ryzen SMT even mantle to some extent.
3) Always telling you they are Gamers too & their trying to push the industry forward. yet they could have pushed ryzen & true audio/Mantle to developers faster ready for the release to consumers.

as an example they had Ryzen working samples for Months, they could have released these to developers then rather than a week before release

i like AMD but they do seem to come up with excuses for not doping X rather than saying their not are in process of doing it.

they seem like a child some times.

what i hate about Nvidia is the not releasing their products together instead hiding them

Eg 1080TI -> Titan Xp debacle

 

[shankly1985]

dont forget the following

1) AMD crying they cannot optimize for X & 2 weeks later having optimizations out.
2) Releasing Products that are not ready or Not supported by More than a few Titles, Eg True Audio,Ryzen SMT even mantle to some extent.
3) Always telling you they are Gamers too & their trying to push the industry forward. yet they could have pushed ryzen & true audio/Mantle to developers faster ready for the release.

i like AMD but they do seem to come up with excuses for not doping X rather than saying their not are in process of doing it.

they seem like a child some times.

TrueAudio wouldn't be pushing the industry forward without also Nvidia being able to use it! Devs just didn't want to waste extra time adding it into games that's why it failed.

Mantle on the other hand has pushed the industry forward, it pushed DX12 out faster, it has also brought about the Vulkan API..

SMT isn't the issue with Ryzen, it's just going through teething issues with some games just like hyper threading used to on Intel.

Ryzen performance gains from game engines is when the games uses the cores correctly not the SMT.

For me AMD take things differently to Nvidia the approach is never out to really hurt anyone using another GPU "Nvidia" but the options are there nvidia could have taken Mantle onboard and pushed this further instead AMD has to take a difference approach and that was Vulkan.
Nvidia can easy use Freesync "Adaptive-Sync" again only hurting users wanting to buy into a bigger selection of monitors.

Even right down to AMD software for games TressFX, HBAO+ and whatever else I can't remember I don't ever remember hearing nvidia users complaining about say Tomb Raider performance.. While on the other hand you hear so much reports of bad performance from nvidia titles even from nvidia users.

Hardly pushing industry forward is it.

like in the video I agree 100% amd will always be on a loosing battle even if Vega is miles better than Nvidia GPUs right now.
Nvidia has a users base that sees everything AMD does has bad. What the hell I have even see people say they will never buy Amd GPU because the CPU line up sucks or even has far as my last AMD GPU melted my motherboard LOOL

Edit
Speed typing on phone

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

AMD seem good at coming up with concepts but poor at executing them.
HBM was a good idea, but then they could only do 4GB cards when they were releasing 8GB cards and people were starting to hype that 4GB wasn't enough. And what benefit did HBM actually give other than limiting the stock of their top tier card? How much better was the Fury X than the 980Ti for gaming?

TrueAudio, another nice concept that I believe worked pretty well. But AMD need to get people to use it otherwise all they've added is bloat to the card which probably added expense. Is anyone still using TrueAudio regularly?

FreeSync is great, but Nvidia sorta beat them to the punch on that one with GSync. I'm not saying Freesync copied GSync, but it seems less innovative when announced 6 months after the competition has launch something similar (better?).

Mantle was good, but not the first low level API. Also once that got difficult they handed it off to someone else to make it production ready.

I did like AMD's idea of not moving to HDMI 2.0 though and instead innovating (or letting others innovate) a DP-to-HDMI 2.0 adaptor that people had to buy for a significant amount of money with a delayed release and stock issues. Although I think AMD also abandoned this idea with the RX 400-series too.


I'm not going to pretend for a minute that Nvidia are perfect though.
If Nvidia's idea of innovation is to convince developers not to use the DX features they can't/don't support, coming up with novel memory configurations (like making the last 500MB run much slower) and recording lots of information about what we do so they can sell it on, then I think they're giving AMD every opportunity to reclaim some market share!

 

[shankly1985]

Isn't also funny that some of the best known PC games for optimisation have AMD on the box, while some of the worst games known for performance have nvidia on the box lol

 

[humbug]

Another great and insightful video from AdoredTV.

Sadly i have to agree with him, nVidia have little incentive to innovate and AMD can no longer afford it, even if they could because of nVidia's massive mindshare it doesn't help them or the industry, in fact that's why AMD can no longer afford to innovate.

And yes, we as a community are to blame for it, we are literally getting what we deserve.

 

[smogsy]

TrueAudio wouldn't be pushing the industry forward without also Nvidia being able to use it! Devs just didn't want to waste extra time adding it into games that's why it failed.

Mantle on the other hand has pushed the industry forward, it pushed DX12 out faster, it has also brought about the Vulkan API..

SMT isn't the issue with Ryzen, it's just going through teething issues with some games just like hyper threading used to on Intel.

Ryzen performance gains from game engines is when the games uses the cores correctly not the SMT.

For me AMD take things differently to Nvidia the approach is never out to really hurt anyone using another GPU "Nvidia" but the options are there nvidia could have taken Mantle onboard and pushed this further instead AMD has to take a difference approach and that was Vulkan.
Nvidia can easy use Freesync "Adaptive-Sync" again only hurting users wanting to buy into a bigger selection of monitors.

Even right down to AMD software for games TressFX, HBAO+ and whatever else I can't remember I don't ever remember hearing nvidia users complaining about say Tomb Raider performance.. While on the other hand you hear so much reports of bad performance from nvidia titles even from nvidia users.

Hardly pushing industry forward is it.

like in the video I agree 100% amd will always be on a loosing battle even if Vega is miles better than Nvidia GPUs right now.
Nvidia has a users base that sees everything AMD does has bad. What the hell I have even see people say they will never buy Amd GPU because the CPU line up sucks or even has far as my last AMD GPU melted my motherboard LOOL

Edit
Speed typing on phone

not defending Nvidia here but

1) Ryzen teething issues could have been nullified or reduced if they released The CPU earlier to developers/MS or waited so to me that is partly AMD fault
2) Gsync Freesync, Yeh i agree Nvidia was doing the Apple thing
3) You cannot compare Tomb Raider TressFX to a NVidia Title, Tomb raider is one little head with some physix (good mind you) but most Nvidia Titles The Reason for the bad performance is the "Special" feature is overused.
Witcher 3 Hairworks (an example) you could have 20 wolves on screen. So much more rendering required as theirs just more of it. unless you put 20 lara on screen too.

again Not defending NVidia. The Only way to compare AMD/Nvidia this way is to have a game that has both like GTA V which both have good performance

either way looking forward to seeing ryzen work correctly as i would love to jump to it in the future

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

...
For me AMD take things differently to Nvidia the approach is never out to really hurt anyone using another GPU "Nvidia" but the options are there nvidia could have taken Mantle onboard and pushed this further instead AMD has to take a difference approach and that was Vulkan.
Nvidia can easy use Freesync "Adaptive-Sync" again only hurting users wanting to buy into a bigger selection of monitors.
...

I think Nvidia would've been insane to have supported Mantle and I think AMD would've been too if the roles were reversed.
Support an API controlled by your main opposition? So they can add new features they put on their cards but refuse to support the features you add to yours? So they can require you to design your architecture to conform to this or that? It's handing way too much control over to the people trying to put you out of business.
Having it in the hands of a neutral party is the only way Nvidia could support it.

I'm not sure Nvidia could support Adaptive-Sync. Didn't it need hardware on the GPU that Nvidia didn't have, hence the hardware added to the monitor?
Also, Nvidia don't need Adaptive-sync, they had GSync. They released GSync first.
If Adaptive-Sync was out before they started work on GSync then maybe they could've and would've. How does supporting Freesync make Nvidia money? If everyone starts using Adaptive-Sync/Freesync then they might stop buying GSync, which I'm sure Nvidia make money off and use to offset the R&D costs. Would it make AMD owners change brands because they could still use their monitor? I seriously doubt they make enough extra sales from converted AMD users. GSync is also more likely to keep people buying Nvidia from one generation to the next.

Just because Nvidia run their company as a business and want to make money doesn't make them evil. It makes them more likely to survive.
I recall people on this forum saying people should buy AMD cards so they don't go out of business so that Nvidia have some competition. That is a silly reason to buy a product. You should buy a product because it's worth buying, not because the company is unable to run a successful business and need your charity.

 

[humbug]

I think Nvidia would've been insane to have supported Mantle and I think AMD would've been too if the roles were reversed.
Support an API controlled by your main opposition? So they can add new features they put on their cards but refuse to support the features you add to yours? So they can require you to design your architecture to conform to this or that? It's handing way too much control over to the people trying to put you out of business.
Having it in the hands of a neutral party is the only way Nvidia could support it.

I'm not sure Nvidia could support Adaptive-Sync. Didn't it need hardware on the GPU that Nvidia didn't have, hence the hardware added to the monitor?
Also, Nvidia don't need Adaptive-sync, they had GSync. They released GSync first.
If Adaptive-Sync was out before they started work on GSync then maybe they could've and would've. How does supporting Freesync make Nvidia money? If everyone starts using Adaptive-Sync/Freesync then they might stop buying GSync, which I'm sure Nvidia make money off and use to offset the R&D costs. Would it make AMD owners change brands because they could still use their monitor? I seriously doubt they make enough extra sales from converted AMD users. GSync is also more likely to keep people buying Nvidia from one generation to the next.

Just because Nvidia run their company as a business and want to make money doesn't make them evil. It makes them more likely to survive.
I recall people on this forum saying people should buy AMD cards so they don't go out of business so that Nvidia have some competition. That is a silly reason to buy a product. You should buy a product because it's worth buying, not because the company is unable to run a successful business and need your charity.

This is why they gave Mantle away to the Khronos Group, its now Vulkan.

Vulkan BTW is German for Volcano, Mantle - Volcano.... get it?

 

[shankly1985]

Isn't the controller inside the DisplayPort 1.3 am sure Nvidia latest Gen GPUs have the latest version of DisplayPort..

If that's the case Nvidia can right now write a driver for its support.

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

This is why they gave Mantle away to the Khronos Group, its now Vulkan.

Vulkan BTW is German for Volcano, Mantle - Volcano.... get it?

Exactly, don't know why anyone would expect Nvidia to support Mantle as it was.
Although I don't see what the name has to do with anything. I'm also not sure what Mantle has to do with Volcanoes... (other than a very tenuous link)

Isn't the controller inside the DisplayPort 1.3 am sure Nvidia latest Gen GPUs have the latest version of DisplayPort..

If that's the case Nvidia can right now write a driver for its support.

And how would that make them money?

Also what about older cards that don't have DP 1.3?

 

[humbug]

Exactly, don't know why anyone would expect Nvidia to support Mantle as it was.
Although I don't see what the name has to do with anything. I'm also not sure what Mantle has to do with Volcanoes... (other than a very tenuous link)



And how would that make them money?

Also what about older cards that don't have DP 1.3?

The mantle is the bit that erupts out of the Volcano.

 

[Gregster]

AMD are broke, so AMD rebrands are fine for them. Nvidia are rich, so rebrands are bad for everyone. Pretty much my take on that vid.

 

[nashathedog]

The mantle is the bit that erupts out of the Volcano.

Isn't that Magma?

As far as I know without looking the mantle is the bit we all live on, the Earth's crust, Is that right? Hold on I'll Google it

EDIT: The mantle is the solid bit between the super heated core and the crust, It's magma that comes out which presumably is another word for Lava? Hold on I'll Google it.

EDIT: It seems it starts life as Magma and gets renamed Lava once it's out in the open, It's a slow news day

Is the 580 due tomorrow?

 

[jjgreenwood]

I suspect amd and Microsoft working on Scorpio may produce more competition for Nvidia than some realise. Atm Nvidia is selling 1080ti as it's 4k gpu, if it turns out Scorpio is capable of getting close enough to it for less money then Nvidia is going to have to cut prices. Then we have amd with their new cards that could well have a competitive advantage with ported Scorpio titles, not to mention all the other titles amd sponsor. Wouldn't surprise me if we see new cards from Nvidia sooner rather than later. They have managed to rinse Pascal money wise but I have a feeling the next gen will be more competitive.