Are We Too Soft In This Country? ........

scorza · 15 Jun 2017 at 15:48

Oh look another one: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4601376/Judge-rules-unfair-deport-sex-offender.html
Court of Appeal rules we can't deport a paedo refugee, who attacked a 13 year old girl, back to Zimbabwe because it wouldn't "be fair" to him. Oh and I especially love this bit:

A key reason that 31-year-old Mr Mosira can now remain in Britain is that lawyers representing Theresa May, who was Home Secretary when the deportation case began, argued that he should be sent home because he would not face real persecution in Zimbabwe.

But, the judges said, Mr Mosira had never been given refugee status on the grounds that he was in any danger in Zimbabwe, and so the Home Office lawyers had been making the wrong argument.

In fact, the Appeal ruling found, Mr Mosira came to Britain under a short-lived scheme operated by Tony Blair’s government which allowed children of refugees to be recognised as refugees themselves.

His mother, the judges said, had been recognised as a refugee in 2001 not because she was in any political trouble but because she wanted health treatment on the NHS.

She was recognised as a refugee, Lord Justice Sales said, ‘purely because of the lack of medical facilities available in Zimbabwe to treat her medical condition as HIV plus

Didn't Farage raise this point in the 2015 election and faced a barrage of abuse because of it?

chroniclard · 15 Jun 2017 at 15:56

The law is the same for everyone.

V F · 15 Jun 2017 at 15:59

chroniclard said:
The law is the same for everyone.

It is not.

Roar87 · 15 Jun 2017 at 16:04

I love how the left see the words 'Human Rights' and automatically assume the legislation is perfect and should not be challenged on any grounds and should apply to everyone. Does that also apply when we shoot armed combatants from a helicopter gunship? There's no such thing as a Human right, it's just an additional set of rules which may or may not be fit for purpose at any given time. If someone has committed a grievous crime in this country against UK citizens then they should lose their right to live here, irrespective of what may happen when they return home, ultimately they chose to commit the crime.

Amp34 · 15 Jun 2017 at 16:04

Liefrich said:
Is there an option to send Scorza and Chris Wilson to Prison or deport them to Saudi or something? I reckon that would make the country safer. If so, I am in - screw the Human Rights Act

I was thinking the same thing.

For two people that spend their time claiming to be patriots they spen a lot of time arguing against some of the fundamental parts of Britishness.

Fairness, equality and the rule of law and right to a fair trial.

chroniclard · 15 Jun 2017 at 16:08

V F said:
It is not.

Its identical for everyone. Interpretation may differ in some cases.

Amp34 · 15 Jun 2017 at 16:11

scorza said:
Killing people has been the answer to more issues than anything else throughout history. Sad but true.

Workhouses and slavery were also acceptable. What's your point?

The world moves on to (hopefully) be a better place.

V F · 15 Jun 2017 at 16:17

chroniclard said:
Its identical for everyone. Interpretation may differ in some cases.

Is that why they say plenty of laws and very little justice... If you've got plenty of money you can get away with a lot. So the laws aren't exactly identical for everyone.

Roar87 · 15 Jun 2017 at 16:33

Amp34 said:
I was thinking the same thing.

For two people that spend their time claiming to be patriots they spen a lot of time arguing against some of the fundamental parts of Britishness.

Fairness, equality and the rule of law and right to a fair trial.

But they've broken the law, had a fair trial, have been treated equally, this is a complete seperate thing

chroniclard · 15 Jun 2017 at 16:40

V F said:
Is that why they say plenty of laws and very little justice... If you've got plenty of money you can get away with a lot. So the laws aren't exactly identical for everyone.

Yes well more money, better lawyer/qc, more understanding of the Law.

Its rarely an open and shut case.....

V F · 15 Jun 2017 at 16:47

chroniclard said:
Yes well more money, better lawyer/qc, more understanding of the Law.

Its rarely an open and shut case.....

I know but you were implying we're all on the same playing field. No.

Its also more than just better lawyers. Lots of things can play a part with lots of money, who you are and what contacts you have. You didn't see any judges prosecuting John Terry and such.

Amp34 · 15 Jun 2017 at 16:50

Roar87 said:
I love how the left

That's your main issue right there.
The so called left aren't some large homogenous group for starters. And where does left end and "right" begin?

The definition will be very different for someone hugely authoritarian like Scorza and someone that is in the centre for example.

Gross generalization is a big issue with a fair number of the people on this forum that spend their time talking about "the left" (see the shooting thread for another example of a person that can't differentiate as well).
Anyway, on to the rest of your post...

see the words 'Human Rights' and automatically assume the legislation is perfect and should not be challenged on any grounds and should apply to everyone. Does that also apply when we shoot armed combatants from a helicopter gunship? There's no such thing as a Human right, it's just an additional set of rules which may or may not be fit for purpose at any given time. If someone has committed a grievous crime in this country against UK citizens then they should lose their right to live here, irrespective of what may happen when they return home, ultimately they chose to commit the crime.

Aside from the continuation of some gross generalization that don't fit most on the so called "left" the issue of serving your time needs to come up.

The courts should sentence a person to jail. They should serve their time and they should then be let out when they have served their sentence. Someone that has committed a grevious crime in this country should stay in prison until they are considered not to be a threat any more anyway.

If they're still a threat then keep them in prison, if they are not considered a threat and released then what's the issue of letting them stay in the country for another few months while their appeal is processed?

Amp34 · 15 Jun 2017 at 16:51

Roar87 said:
But they've broken the law, had a fair trial, have been treated equally, this is a complete seperate thing

That's not relevant to the point being made in that post

Equal does not mean "equal, unless I don't consider them British, or they commit a crime I don't like or are someone I don't like".

Which seems to be the premise of "equal" for a fair number on this forum complaining about human rights.

Amp34 · 15 Jun 2017 at 16:52

V F said:
I know but you were implying we're all on the same playing field. No.

Its also more than just better lawyers. Lots of things can play a part with lots of money, who you are and what contacts you have. You didn't see any judges prosecuting John Terry and such.

Hence the need to allow EVERYONE access to decent representation and why things like legal funds are so important.

Roar87 · 15 Jun 2017 at 16:53

Amp34 said:
The courts should sentence a person to jail. They should serve their time and they should then be let out when they have served their sentence. Someone that has committed a grevious crime in this country should stay in prison until they are considered not to be a threat any more anyway.

If they're still a threat then keep them in prison, if they are not considered a threat and released then what's the issue of letting them stay in the country for another few months while their appeal is processed?

No being in this country is not a right for people who aren't British citizens, it's a privilege that can and should be revoked if people break the law.

V F · 15 Jun 2017 at 16:54

Amp34 said:
If they're still a threat then keep them in prison, if they are not considered a threat and released then what's the issue of letting them stay in the country for another few months while their appeal is processed?

Lots of crazy/mental people are in prisons that shouldn't even be there but they shut all the mental hospitals down.

Amp34 said:
Hence the need to allow EVERYONE access to decent representation and why things like legal funds are so important.

It'll never happen.

dowie · 15 Jun 2017 at 17:05

Amp34 said:
If they're still a threat then keep them in prison, if they are not considered a threat and released then what's the issue of letting them stay in the country for another few months while their appeal is processed?

sadly we don't have access to a crystal ball to really determine how much of a threat they pose... anyone facing deportation after being found guilty is potentially a 'threat' I'm not sure we have the ability legally to simply keep people locked up after they've completed their sentence simply because they've chosen to appeal being deported... in fact it would be cheaper to deport them surely?

chroniclard · 15 Jun 2017 at 17:11

Not arguing against deporting scum, just that the actual law is the same for everyone.

But yes money buys you better law.

dowie · 15 Jun 2017 at 17:14

chroniclard said:
Not arguing against deporting scum, just that the actual law is the same for everyone.

But yes money buys you better law.

well that isn't really true... whether you're a UK citizen or not (and AFAIK an EU citizen or not) can mean different treatment with this sort of thing

V F · 15 Jun 2017 at 17:16

chroniclard said:
Not arguing against deporting scum, just that the actual law is the same for everyone.

But yes money buys you better law.

Quite amusing seeing these two sentences.