Finsbury Park Van Attack

[Amp34]

@VincentHanna

Not in the slightest, it attributes pretty much any incidents involving someone that is Muslim, or looks Muslim, as being related to Islam, and then adds in lots of deaths in failed states and warzones to get an even bigger list.

I'm sure the "right" wing tally would be a lot bigger if we did that too.

Besides ironically that list IMO just makes right wing extremism worse, because if you look at the motivation behind Islamic extremism it's just another form of "right" wing extremism - "nationalistic" ideology by people that are worried about their way of life being overrun by the western way of life.

 

[Tefal]

I respect the fact that the mods don't have all day to devote to modding a single thread, but I do worry about the message that's sent by closing that thread, with regards to the leanings of the moderating team, and their attitudes towards more moderate members. Can't help but to feel it occured in the defence of the more wretched right wing commenters (who by rights should have simply been banned).

As per the last thread; this has been a horrifying right wing extremist terrorist attack, and I admire the restraint of the men that held the terrorist until the police arrived. We must do much more (something?!) to tackle the vile right wing narrative of the DM, BNP, UKIP and so on, in an effort to stem the radicalisation of young (and, sadly, older) white males. Shocking series of events .

Bnp are strongly left wing aren't they?

How come this post is allowed but if you replaced right wing with islam/Muslim it would be bannedm

 

[Amp34]

https://www.infowars.com/white-supr...upporter-threatened-to-kill-trump-supporters/ Looking at his posts that doesn't seem to be an accurate picture. He was a Bernie supporter who got very upset that Bernie got knocked out and he had no choice between the two remaining candidates. When it's Bernie or nothing, I fail to see how he counts as a Trump supporter. He was a supporter of the most radical left candidate and he also liked Ralph Nader who was the most radical left candidate before Bernie.

Doesn't seem exceptionally out of place. As mentioned previously extremists are attracted to extremism. Many jump between completely different ideologies - as an example the neonazi turned Muslim that murdered his neonazi housemates - depending on what they feel like at the time.

Then again it is infowars so unless that can be backed up by a more reliable source I'll stay rather sceptical.

 

[Freakbro]

https://www.infowars.com/white-supr...upporter-threatened-to-kill-trump-supporters/ Looking at his posts that doesn't seem to be an accurate picture. He was a Bernie supporter who got very upset that Bernie got knocked out and he had no choice between the two remaining candidates. When it's Bernie or nothing, I fail to see how he counts as a Trump supporter. He was a supporter of the most radical left candidate and he also liked Ralph Nader who was the most radical left candidate before Bernie.

Infowars, lol, you know you've lost the argument when your linking to the guy who had to admit under oath he was just a performer and his theories are just fiction, for the weak minded.....so his site is such a reputable source to back up your viewpoint

But you keep focusing on that one small piece whilst ignoring what else the white supremacist brother is saying

 

[Tosno]

Infowars, lol, you know you've lost the argument when your linking to the guy who had to admit under oath he was just a performer and his theories are just fiction, for the weak minded.....so his site is such a reputable source to back up your viewpoint

But you keep focusing on that one small piece whilst ignoring what else the white supremacist brother is saying

Ad hominem again... what exactly is in that article that isn't true

And also: https://www.thecollegefix.com/post/25885/

https://areomagazine.com/2017/05/28...ght-wing-extremist-than-an-islamic-terrorist/

"
A tally which starts after the biggest terror attack committed on U.S. soil.
A tally which ends before the deadliest mass shooting on U.S. soil. (Both of these attacks were committed by jihadists.)
A tally which fails to include certain other jihadist and right-wing attacks.
A tally which misreports certain attacks as “right-wing” or “far-right”.
A report which fails to include figures for Americans killed abroad.
A report which ignores foiled plots.
A report which ignores the number of non-fatal casualties.
A report which is not calibrated to consider the disproportionate focus of counter-terror analysis on Islamic terrorism.
A report which is not calibrated to consider the disproportionate number of attacks by Muslim extremists in relation to their lack of prevalence as a minority group.
A report which conflates several disparate ideological motivations for non-Islamic terrorism by lumping them all into the “far-right” bracket.
A report which ignores all terror attacks outside of the United States."

What a wonderful hot night

 

[Amp34]

Bnp are strongly left wing aren't they?

How come this post is allowed but if you replaced right wing with islam/Muslim it would be bannedm

Not really, it would depend on what you changed BNP, DM and UKIP with. If you changed it to Islam, Muslims and Koran for example then it may be, rightly so, but change it to Abu Hamza, Wahhabism and similar things then I'd assume it wouldn't. Reality is on this forum the former is more likely to be posted by those claiming censorship than the latter...

And BNP left wing? Perhaps fiscally, but that's irrelevant in the context of this thread. Another example of why left and right are such poor terms to use.

 

[Amp34]

Ad hominem again... what exactly is in that article that isn't true

And also: https://www.thecollegefix.com/post/25885/

https://areomagazine.com/2017/05/28...ght-wing-extremist-than-an-islamic-terrorist/

"
A tally which starts after the biggest terror attack committed on U.S. soil.
A tally which ends before the deadliest mass shooting on U.S. soil. (Both of these attacks were committed by jihadists.)
A tally which fails to include certain other jihadist and right-wing attacks.
A tally which misreports certain attacks as “right-wing” or “far-right”.
A report which fails to include figures for Americans killed abroad.
A report which ignores foiled plots.
A report which ignores the number of non-fatal casualties.
A report which is not calibrated to consider the disproportionate focus of counter-terror analysis on Islamic terrorism.
A report which is not calibrated to consider the disproportionate number of attacks by Muslim extremists in relation to their lack of prevalence as a minority group.
A report which conflates several disparate ideological motivations for non-Islamic terrorism by lumping them all into the “far-right” bracket.
A report which ignores all terror attacks outside of the United States."

What a wonderful hot night

Probably worth noting but that is not about the report I linked to...

And you're now trying to attribute deaths in warzones and abroad to US deaths, interesting way of padding the figures.

Both websites also appear to have a significant anti Islam stance (hello echo chamber?)...

Personally I'll stick with the government report thanks.

Ironically if this was in any other thread people would be claiming deflection and whataboutery...

 

[mmj_uk]

3 religious nutters with a white van and knives, a single homemade bomb and a rightwing reaction in a car, if based on these you'd like to install supreme leader trump and a wall mentality, how on earth would you have coped during the 80s and 90s?

It's only going to get worse for muslims and non-muslims alike if we do nothing, it'll steadily snowball to normality. The IRA didn't just go away because we closed our eyes and talked hippy rubbish about love and unity. You can't negotiate with people who don't really have a purpose other than to kill people who don't follow their religion, the idiot who attacked today is most likely a reaction to the government pussyfooting around the issue, not only of terrorist incidents but things like the child abuse scandal.

 

[StriderX]

Uhh. Except we did negotiate with the IRA... The problem here is we support the very vehicle that transports such a toxic belief around the world, while attacking it semi-randomly.

 

[tang0]

attacker named as Darren Osborne - and weirdly (for a supremacist or whatever he is) he's also doing the ISIS/terrorist finger pointing in the air pose...

 

[dowie]

ZOMG secret muslim Barack 'Hussein' Obama, the conspiracies are true!

 

[Tosno]

Probably worth noting but that is not about the report I linked to...

And you're now trying to attribute deaths in warzones and abroad to US deaths, interesting way of padding the figures.

Both websites also appear to have a significant anti Islam stance (hello echo chamber?)...

Personally I'll stick with the government report thanks.

Ironically if this was in any other thread people would be claiming deflection and whataboutery...

1st, as I already mentioned with Portland, by adding the terrorist attacks of the left to those of the right, the GAO can claim right-wing extremism is more dangerous than Islamic terrorism — and thus pander to the left by diverting attention away from the dangers of one of the left’s favoured contemporary mascot. 2nd, it allows the left to white-wash their own atrocities — both their historical and contemporary record. The sophistry is strong with the GAO.

Terrorism is defined by the Oxford Dictionary as “The unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Only 13 can be legitimately labeled terrorist attacks.

 

[Amp34]

It's only going to get worse for muslims and non-muslims alike if we do nothing, it'll steadily snowball to normality. The IRA didn't just go away because we closed our eyes and talked hippy rubbish about love and unity. You can't negotiate with people who don't really have a purpose other than to kill people who don't follow their religion, the idiot who attacked today is most likely a reaction to the government pussyfooting around the issue, not only of terrorist incidents but things like the child abuse scandal.

So again, whats the solution?

Not that I don't believe that photo is real (no reason not to be), are you sure that's real?! His head looks disproportionately large for his body.

1st, as I already mentioned with Portland, by adding the terrorist attacks of the left to those of the right, the GAO can claim right-wing extremism is more dangerous than Islamic terrorism — and thus pander to the left by diverting attention away from the dangers of one of the left’s favoured contemporary mascot. 2nd, it allows the left to white-wash their own atrocities — both their historical and contemporary record. The sophistry is strong with the GAO.

Terrorism is defined by the Oxford Dictionary as “The unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Only 13 can be legitimately labeled terrorist attacks.

A witness reported that Christian used anti-Muslim slurs and "was screaming that he was a taxpayer, that colored people were ruining the city, and he had First Amendment rights".[8] Portland police described Christian "as yelling and ranting and raving a lot of different things, including what we characterized as hate speech or biased language".[9]

At the time, the train car was crowded, with all the seats filled and some passengers standing, although not at its rush-hour peak.[8] As the man continued ranting, the train operator got on the loudspeaker "saying something like whoever is creating the disturbance needed to exit the train immediately".[8] The man continued, however,[8] directing his tirade at a young Muslim woman, age 17, who was wearing a hijab, and her non-Muslim friend, a black girl, age 16.[10][11][12] The man told the girls to "to go back to Saudi Arabia"; told them to get out of "his country"; and "said they were nothing and they should kill themselves".[10] He also reportedly said that "that Muslims should die

The police affidavit states that patrol-car video footage shows Christian saying, after his arrest, "I just stabbed a bunch of (expletive) in their neck ... I can die in prison a happy man" and, about one of the men on the train who had confronted him, "That's what liberalism gets you."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Portland_train_attack

No matter how you paint it, it was a quintessential "right" wing attack by a white supremacist, ultra nationalist neo nazi. You can blabber on about being a bernie "supporter" all you like it doesn't negate the facts of the actual incident.

I guess that's one way of reducing the number of deaths caused by "right" wing racists, nationalists and supremacist - you insist they were something else.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-tensions-in-portland/?utm_term=.d69c7f69be82

Last month, even as hardcore activists with opposing ideologies clashed on the streets of Portland, Ore., as police officers kept watch, Jeremy Joseph Christian stood out.

He was big, standing over 6 feet tall and weighing 235 pounds, according to booking details. He wore an American flag cape. He was marching through the crowd yelling the racial epithet “n—-r” and throwing off one-armed Nazi salutes.

“That’s the dude who wrote all that ranting, weird stuff on the Facebook page. That’s the dude in the ’76 cape,” one of the journalists said, referring to the 1776 American flag that Christian wore around his neck, “the one who got kicked out earlier.”

“Oh, the one who was shouting at everyone.”

“He was shouting racial epithets at the park,” she continued.

“I will generally knock out a person that calls me a racist,” he wrote. He described himself as a white nationalist, adding, “I Support Balkanization for racists and religion lines.”

Christian’s Facebook page is awash in hateful and angry memes and photos. He makes threats of violence against police. He called Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh a “TRUE PATRIOT!!!” on April 19, the anniversary of the 1995 domestic terrorist attack. Attempts to reach Christian’s family members for comment were unsuccessful Saturday.

Sounds a bit like some on this forum "I'm not racist... but only white people can be classed as British"

And oddly he can be seen clearly marching with all the Trump and Pence supporters at a protest in the video. how surprising.

 

[Amp34]

And to further go into the comments about extremists being extremists first here's an interesting read if you haven't read it already.

Terrorists motivated by far-right extremism and by Islamist extremism share similar tactics, a similar brutality, and a similar desire to remake the global democratic order.

But they are usually considered enemies at opposite ends of the political spectrum. Far right terror attacks in Europe have been motivated by opposition to Muslim immigration.

But Arthur’s switch in allegiance raises a key question for analysts looking at the process of radicalisation: to what extent the factors that attract people to extremism are specific to a particular ideology at all.

At least two neo-Nazi sites denounced the murders, mourned the victims, and described Arthurs as a former commenter who had eventually been banned for his comments about Islam and terrorism. Both sites described the murders as “a Muslim terror plot” against a neo-Nazi group.

However, officials at the FBI and at the UK’s domestic intelligence agency, MI5, say little distinguishes the “pathways to violence” taken by extremists following different ideologies. One UK official said “the mechanics of radicalisation” were broadly similar in all cases.

“Our studies on both jihadis and rightwingers, and also school shooters and such like, found very little difference in terms of … pathways. It’s like when your immune system is down. You can guess you’ll get sick, but what sickness you contract depends on what you are exposed to,” said Paul Gill, an expert in extremism at the University College London.

Though it is almost impossible to create a typical terrorist profile, some research shows that “seekers” who are looking for a particular form of “brotherhood” or cause that can give their lives meaning are particularly prone to radicalisation.

There is also evidence that a sudden destabilising event – or even a minor incident that has a powerful emotional impact – can make an individual vulnerable.

But ideology can be secondary to a “propensity for violence”.

“This guy [Arthur] has only changed the T-shirt [of] what his violence is about,” Gill said.

Basically it doesn't matter if you're "Right" wing, "left" wing, Muslim, environmentalist or other what makes you an extremist is your propensity for violence.

It's not the "right" that are the problem, it's not muslims that are the problem. It's people with extreme views and a propensity for violence - hence many terrorists having criminal records and violent pasts.

Although neo-Nazis and Islamist militants may follow similar paths to extremism, studies have revealed significant differences in their behavior once radicalised.
Recent research has showed Islamic militant attackers are more likely to tell friends or family or other associates about their plans of violence: 71% of jihadis “leak” such information, compared with 53% of rightwing extremists.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/27/extremism-terrorism-far-right-neo-nazi-devon-arthurs

That may be a pertinent point to this unfortunate event, and possibly explain why he wasn't on a watch list like all the other terrorists recent.

 

[Greebo]

That 73% figure is BS.To arrive at that figure they have to include alleged graffiti vandalism. And each "incident" is given the same weight. So the Orlando nightclub massacre and a piece of graffiti are both counted as "one" incident. The Portland stabbing was done by a Bernie supporter, explain how that counts as "far right" extremism?

He said 73% of incidents which led to death. I very much doubt that includes graffiti.

 

[Deleted member 68110]

Finsbury Park suspect Darren Osborne's family 'in shock'
~ http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40332616

And yet he was...

'Aggressive' and 'strange' [and] had vowed to 'do some damage'
~ https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ed-after-van-hits-pedestrians-in-north-london

He "also appears to have a Twitter account, which he has never used to send his own tweets, instead monitoring 32 other users, including Paul Golding and Jayda Fransen, the leaders of the far right party Britain First".

It will be interesting to find out what his family did to alert the authorities about this likely terrorist, and whether the authorities ignored any warnings.

 

[Johno please?]

depends on which imams or clerics you talk to and how you interpret the Quran... it isn't like there is one universal agreed upon version of Islam

Yea exactly, who do I speak to? The chances are my local imam is decent human being.

I don't really care what muslims believe, its what Islam teaches that bothers me.

Terrorism has no religion,.

That is pretty much a cliche now, along with #notrealmuslims

 

[Johno please?]

@VincentHanna

Besides ironically that list IMO just makes right wing extremism worse, because if you look at the motivation behind Islamic extremism it's just another form of "right" wing extremism - "nationalistic" ideology by people that are worried about their way of life being overrun by the western way of life.

I agree TROP website may be a bit of a catch all scenario, but if you google many on the list you will find that actually more are happening that are inspired by Islam than we actually think.

Has anyone given it any thought about what you would do if you or a loved one were caught up in a terrorist attack, while unlikely, its not outside the realms of posiblity, what would your reaction be if your wife was stabbed to death or run down by a van?

 

[MookJong]

I had Muslim friends in school and a close friend through University. I thought parts of their religion was bonkers even back then and I continue to do so today. What worries me is that the word Islamophobic has been banded around a lot in the last 24 hours. Am I Islamophobic? In the 90s this wasn't really a thing, I would just agree to disagree with their beliefs basically. I see my stance in the same way as I would call out flat earthers or Evangelical Christians who believe the earth is 6000 years old. Parts of the scripture are ridiculous, however I fear that to point this out and to enter a debate about freeing your mind of religious shackles is now seen as wrong.

I have nothing against any individual and would never want draconian measures, but I would hope that Britain is moving forward in knowledge and understanding. London and ethnically diverse areas are the only places where religion is on the rise. If you fear this is a backwards step what can you do without being called out as some sort of bigot?

I guess the answer is nothing and we just hope the modern and scientific world prevails but it does all seem very silly.

 

[chroniclard]

The van used. Isn't it about time we stop these extremists?