Finsbury Park Van Attack

[zoomee]

What can we do about that now? We can all go back through history and make excuses for everything. The reality is there are a significant number of radicalised extremists who aim to cause us harm. They are disgusting and can't be defended in any way.

Even if we were to hold our hands up and say we've made mistakes, they wouldn't stop. They are a relentless evil.

In my view, the entire world is a farce, wars have been blatantly waged over oil for example, yet people won't address these issues - they never will. Yet it doesn't make these acts of terror against the innocent any easier to understand.

I 100% agree bud - I see myself only as a Brit. My country made mistakes in the past, but the one thing I can push for is an anti-war agenda so the problem doesn't get worse. If middle-eastern muslims see us taking this sort of action and being fair with the likes of the palestinian v's israel mess (which we created in the first place!) the world can change my friend. Corbyn has acknowledged this which is why he is so popular amongst the newer generation fed up of years of wars after wars.

ISIS was of our own making - we created a power vacuum which let them for the first time since Islam was established, flourish. They are what we muslims call the 'khawarij' - and we are commanded to Kill them - THEY ARE ISLAMS BIGGEST ENEMY yet simple things like the name ISIS attributes them to islam. There are too many games being played in the middle-east by ALL countries not just ours supporting various camps - just leave them to sort their own crap out and we'll soon see these attacks stop.

I'm more concerned with looking after my own country first and foremost, than I am trying to police the world. We all need to focus. We ain't got money to look after our NHS but we ALWAYS got money for war

 

[dowie]

It was a factor in the Iraq war.

well sort of in so far as the region itself is important partly because of oil - but if the war itself was fought for oil then the US and UK have had a funny way of going about it as China seems to have been the biggest beneficiary of Iraqi oil, not to mention we could have quite easily purchased oil from Iraq without going to war.... in fact not long before the war we were actively stopping most of the trading of oil with Iraq aside form via the oil for food program

 

[hornetstinger]

I personally don't doubt that Islam has a root cause that needs to be addressed.... But then imagine it like this....

Majority of people in Jail in America are Christians
Look at the high security ones where people have murdered and you'll find most of them are Christians
I know the media have produced headlines of the disgusting Muslim peodophiles but there have been a few recently in my town .... They are all white British... And probably class themselves as Christian... At least culturally.

So to address your point...yes islam does have a lot to account for. But no more so than any other religion. And how do you 'account for' when everyone is different. If I went round in a church saying that person from down the road is a peado ... he's also a Christian so your religion has a lot to account for.... I bet the response would be.... It's nothing to do with us... Why should we apologise.... What do you want us to do

Difference between what mohammed was and did.

Would I respect the teaching of Hitler, Fred Talbot, Anders Brevik, and Jimmy Saville? No. Would I idolise them the most perfect men to have lived, and to aspire to be like? No.

But that is what Muslims adhere to.

 

[StriderX]

well sort of in so far as the region itself is important partly because of oil - but if the war itself was fought for oil then the US and UK have had a funny way of going about it as China seems to have been the biggest beneficiary of Iraqi oil, not to mention we could have quite easily purchased oil from Iraq without going to war.... in fact not long before the war we were actively stopping most of the trading of oil with Iraq aside form via the oil for food program

Did Iraq want to sell Oil not using the dollar?

Seems to be an important factor.

 

[dowie]

[..]

I think you've missed the point - it was simply flipping the argument around.

 

[dowie]

@@Dowie

https://theintercept.com/2017/05/31...ght-terrorists-pose-a-clear-danger-to-us-all/

again these don't seem to relate to movies.. you've pointed out the same thing re: domestic 'terror' in the US more than once along with links, yet no one has disputed that in the first place so I'm not really seeing the relevance? Yes there is lots of violence in the US - so what?

 

[Schlong&Stable]

No. If you want to look at root causes - up till we started the 'wars of revenge' there were NO 'muslamic' attacks here in the UK. It was unheard of.

When we decided to go start bombing the crap out of afghanistan with our american warmonger buddies, then illegally took over iraq, helped bomb the crap out of libya the past two years - what did you expect? There wasn't going to be reprisals? - We go around the world carrying out indiscriminate drone attacks like we own the world or something then wonder why people hate us?

Our intelligence services have been telling us for years that these wars will only make terrorism worse. Did we stop? No- Now you have the cheek to say its because muslims are carrying attacks on british soil? lol.

The only thing heavily associated with terrorism is 'politics'. The politicians are the only winners, everyone else loses, whilst they sit in their ivory towers.

So nothing to do with the explosion (heh) of the Muslim population in the UK in the last few decades? We mostly had a small first generation population of Muslims in the UK before the 90's, since then it has rapidly grown.

Also, if what you said was true, why is France, Belgium and so forth a victim of so much terrorism? France was a vocal critic of the Iraq war.

 

[elmarko]

Overall, there is a trend tbh behind extremism.

Nation A.

1. Possesses oil, minerals wealth or a strategically important location.

2. Leader is not friendly with the US/UK business interests.

3. UK/US supports anybody who wishes to take control on the condition of more favourable terms, or purely to destabilise the region.

4. Use military to support whatever elements will overthrow government.

5. The new shift of power often ends up in the hands of extremist fundamentalists - groups like ISIS thrive in power vacuums & have a healthy number of potential recruits from the rubble left by US bombs.

6. These organisations care about power & influence, who they target is limited by their capability - so local Muslims who disagree, any neighbouring nations & terrorist attacks on nations who now seek to oppose them are the status quo.

Overall...

ISIS are a manifestation of a combination of factors, exported Saudi Wahhabism US/UK foreign policy, power vacuums, religious differences in the region, support of Israel, propping up of dictatorships (who play ball), tribal power struggles & the clash of cultures.

They don't care just about revenge, but exerting influence globally - anybody who doesn't share their world view is considered a legitimate target. It's just they are the result of a long list of events which the west played a part in.

It's a hugely complex mess with a myriad of causes.

The issues we see with white nationalists/racists (like the sad excuse for a man in the incident in this thread) are also highly complex. Soundbites won't cut it.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

Did Iraq want to sell Oil not using the dollar?

Seems to be an important factor.

What makes you think it's an important factor?

 

[Efour]

What makes you think it's an important factor?

Same thing Venezuela tried.
It's the end of modern Imperialism.

 

[zoomee]

I do not think other religions are innocent, that is just a straw man you created to avoid addressing the issue. What I think is that in terms of scale, Islam is far more pernicious than any other religion, both within the UK, europe and the world at large.

This is not the same as saying that all Muslims are bad people, or that all Jews, Sikhs and Hindus are good. There are jerks in all walks of life. But Islam is a religion which uniquely glorifies violence; its founder was a bandit who slaughtered and beheaded his enemies. A sentiment his modern day followers still seek to emulate.

Of course your saying all muslims are bad people when you 'claim' their religion glorifies violence and use rhetoric such as quote above.

The founders of ALL religions were involved in murder of some form to weed out the corrupt and establish the haq (Truth/Rights). Even Jesus (the one I see as the most pacifistic - is that a word? lol) is evidenced to have promoted the killing of certain individuals for corruption / adultry etc. The way I see it is that they were people of God. Guided by God and only HE has the right to determine who should live or die. But thats another topic for another day.

The point I was and am still making NCL is that we muslims are simply asking for EQUALITY - NOT for anything above and beyond what other religious minorities have in this country.

 

[hornetstinger]

"Guided by God and only HE has the right to determine who should live or die. But thats another topic for another day."

Including mass murder regarding the flood, sodom & gemorrah, the woman turned to salt, ordering a father to murder his son?

oh and not fogetting creating a place where billions of people are eternally tortured, well because of lots of reasons. And not because your name is pol pot.

From the sounds of it, the man made laws on who deserves death is superior to your what your god deems who should die.

 

[dowie]

The founders of ALL religions were involved in murder of some form to weed out the corrupt and establish the haq (Truth/Rights). Even Jesus (the one I see as the most pacifistic - is that a word? lol) is evidenced to have promoted the killing of certain individuals for corruption / adultry etc.

really - where? AFAIK he chased some money changers/lenders out of a temple but that was about it

Did Buddha get involved in murder too?

 

[Schlong&Stable]

Of course your saying all muslims are bad people when you 'claim' their religion glorifies violence and use rhetoric such as quote above.

That isn't my view. I think most Muslims are simply misguided in their adherence to a sinister religion. And given that I am not a woman, a homosexual or an apostate, I don't have too much to worry about.

The founders of ALL religions were involved in murder of some form to weed out the corrupt and establish the haq (Truth/Rights). Even Jesus (the one I see as the most pacifistic - is that a word? lol) is evidenced to have promoted the killing of certain individuals for corruption / adultry etc. The way I see it is that they were people of God. Guided by God and only HE has the right to determine who should live or die. But thats another topic for another day.

No, it's not a topic for another day. What evidence is there for this claim? None. Jesus explicitly renounced violence. When struck on one cheek, what did he say Christians should do? Show the other cheek. That those who came after him chose to use violence to spread Christianity is not in dispute, there's plenty of blood on the hands there. But when it comes to Jesus vs Mohammed, one was a peaceful carpenter, the other a bandit who cut the heads off Jews.

The point I was and am still making NCL is that we muslims are simply asking for EQUALITY - NOT for anything above and beyond what other religious minorities have in this country.

In what sense do they not enjoy equality?

 

[zoomee]

Thompson_NCL - I really don't want to post this as I have a lot of respect for Jesus - the Son of Mary. So much so I named my daughter after his mother.

BUT - Here you go - this is for you and dowie who claim Jesus never promoted to kill:

http://www.evilbible.com/do-not-ignore-the-old-testament/what-would-jesus-do/

To quote further:

The Old Testament (before Jesus) is filled with horrible crimes that God sanctions and even commands.

There is Genocide, including a divine order to kill women and children at Jericho. There is Fratricide where God commands followers of Moses to kill their own families.

There are commands to kill for women who are unable to prove they are a virgin and homosexuals.

And I'm sure I don't need to link you the recent vid showing excerpts being read from a book which everyone thought was the quran - turned out to be the bible....

 

[hornetstinger]

Thompson_NCL - I really don't want to post this as I have a lot of respect for Jesus - the Son of Mary. So much so I named my daughter after his mother.

BUT - Here you go - this is for you and dowie who claim Jesus never promoted to kill:

http://www.evilbible.com/do-not-ignore-the-old-testament/what-would-jesus-do/

You believe in the Trinity, right?

God, Jesus and Holy Spirit is the one of the same.
Who murdered millions of people in the mythical flood? Your god.

Also Jesus did in fact spout murderous stuff.

 

[robgmun]

really - where? AFAIK he chased some money changers/lenders out of a temple but that was about it

Did Buddha get involved in murder too?

Indeed, it's the most retarded thing i've read all day. Jesus never ever advocated murder, in fact he was the original hippy.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

You believe in the Trinity, right?

God, Jesus and Holy Spirit is the one of the same.
Who murdered millions of people in the mythical flood? Your god.

Also Jesus did in fact spout murderous stuff.

He's a Muslim, so he doesn't believe in the trinity.

Anyway, his citation is comical. A MUSLIM is citing an ATHEIST website as a source against one of their own prophets You couldn't make it up.

 

[dowie]

BUT - Here you go - this is for you and dowie who claim Jesus never promoted to kill:

there is some real lack of basic reasoning with you today - I didn't make such a claim, I asked for information and stated that as far as I knew he just chased some money lenders from a temple...

a few posts previously I asked you re: some movie stats and you decided to instead post stats re: terror attacks in the US, twice while simultaneously ignoring what had actually been posted

your link does seem pretty dubious though

 

[zoomee]

You believe in the Trinity, right?

- I'm not christian bud.

The Trinity was a concept introduced into Christianity at a much later stage. I believe ALL the prophets of ALL time preached the same message. God is ONE. We all pray to the God of Abraham which is what these religions are based upon.