emulation (legal) vs original consoles... a few questions relating to these

dowie

dowie

dowie

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(this could get a bit tl:dr but if someone could answer just some of the things I'm querying I'd be very grateful - rough tl:dr bit at the bottom, but am keen to get a better understanding of the various issues too)

Not wanting to clog up the retro thread (which is already rather massive and was originally intended for people to share pictures of their gear) but I've got a few questions relating to emulation and original re: displays this partly as a result of pre-ordering a snes classic and doing a bit of searching/reading about retro gaming. I figured this forum would be a good place to ask as there tend to be some pretty knowledgable people on OCUK and I'd rather ask here and get a range of views rather than somewhere dedicated to either purists or people involved in the dodgy pirating side.

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General emulation question in relation to SNES
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Firstly regarding emulation: I understand the snes mini I'm ordering is essentially going to emulate snes games (and presumably upscale them) and I'll be able to connect direct to a HDTV - does this mean there will be some lag introduced? (aside from the slight difference in response times between CRT and LED flat panels)

Or is the lag that people want to avoid when using CRTs over HDTV with old consoles mostly related to using the old hardware and having a TV or external device upscale the image/convert an analogue signal to digital etc.. ergo emulators such as the SNES classic won't have that issue. (obviously there are image issues there too)

Likewise I understand that some Wii consoles are able to play classic games you can purchase online from Nintendo and that this is done through emulation (I presume this is or will be a feature of the switch too) - are these generally OK, better or worse than playing the original? (I mean in terms of objective issues - image quality, sound, response etc.., obviously some people will have a more subjective preference for the 'authentic' experience)

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Megadrive - Retron5 or CRT
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I'm also wondering about the Retron5 (I've got an old megadrive with a bunch of games) - I understand that the Retron5 is perfectly legal too and just temporarily copies the rom from your legit cartridge and then essentially acts like an emulator - are there any major issues with this?

AFAIK the alternative for the megadrive is some naff mini version not actually made by SEGA but made under license by some third party(AT Games or something?).


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PS1 on PS2 or PS3
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I believe my PS2 and PS3 can both play PS1 games - (I never actually owned a PS1 but I might buy a few games) I presume this is natively supported via hardware rather than relying on emulation - though I wonder which is preferable to use - the PS3 is connected to a HDTV, will this therefore suffer from issues re: the image etc.. or will it be displayed in the correct size etc.. would it be preferable to play PS1 games through a PS2 connected to a CRT TV?

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Dreamcast - display?
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I've got a Dreamcast somewhere in the attic at my parent's house, I understand that this is 480p - now HDTVs will support this however I wonder if the same issues mentioned above apply - what would be the optimum for a Dreamcast? I've got an old 19" CRT ilyama monitor somewhere that will support 480 presumably that would be fine for the dreamcast (but perhaps no use for a PS2).

What would be optimum for a Dreamcast an EDTV Plasma screen supporting 480p? This presumably would be useful too if I bought a second hand Wii for Wii and gamecube games (I've got a feeling that if I start getting into Mario kart I might end up wanting some of the later versions of it too) though I'm guessing not so useful for the PS2?

Would an EDTV CRT (480p) perhaps be optimal (aside from PVMs etc..) as I guess such a TV would be fine for 240p (? or is is better to get a non EDTV CRT TV? for 240p games), 480i etc.. and I could use it for not only the dreamcast (and potential future Wii purchase) but also for the megadrive and my amiga.

AFAIK HD CRT TVs aren't so good as they'd need to upscale the image(?)

lastly....

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Amiga - display?
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Same question as above really - what is a good display, as a kid I had it connected to a small Sony Triniton TV, though that has long gone unfortunately. I do remember though that the kid down the road had his connected to a monitor and when playing the Adams Family Gomez's jacket which looked like a solid colour on my TV was actually striped on his monitor - I presume though that that is maybe down to the TV I had at the time perhaps not being up to scratch.

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essentially - I guess part of what I'm trying to establish is

would a decent EDTV CRT be the optimal catch all solution for playing the Amiga, megadrive, dreamcast, Wii and PS2 (plus PS1 games through that same console)?

Or perhaps am I going to be at no real disadvantage (other than missing the 'authentic' experience) perhaps just sticking with the PS3, playing PS1 games through it on a HDTV, using the snes mini for the main snes games and perhaps then buying retro games (some old dreamcast titles) through the playstation store along with buying a switch for the new Mario kart, Zelda etc.. and retro Nintendo games

(anyway if you've read this far thanks for your time :) any suggestions or technical info etc.. appreciated)
 
I believe the best possible image quality for the dream cast is via VGA. Does your TV support this connection? I have an old trinitron CRT and use all my consoles via RGB scart but really Dreamcast onwards really want to be using methods like component or something more modern for the optimum of qualities I guess

With the PS3 do you already own it? If not you will need the original launch model to be able to run your PS2 and PS1 games from discs. However Sony have put out digital versions of some old games which will then run on any PS3 I'd imagine.
 
In my opinion, anything from the PS2 and before should be played on a CRT TV. Therefore if you intend on using an LCD display then you may as well emulate.

The Dreamcast and original Xbox hold up pretty well on an LCD screen.

The Dreamcast supports VGA so should have any issues with an LCD, although not all games support VGA.

Original Xbox supports component and up to 720p

Based on the NES Mini classic performed there may well be a certain amount of lag with the SNES mini, but I doubt anyone one other than speed runners and hardcore purist will be that bothered about.

The Mega Drive looks stunning on a CRT TV when connected via RGB Scart cables. As does the GameCube and SNES, PS1 and PS2.

PS1 on a PS2 isn't emulation since the PS1's main processor is on the PS2's mainboard. Either way they both PS1 and PS2 games look far better on CRT TV's than LCD. I actually have a Sony Bravia TV with a PS2 built in to it as well as a Sony Trinitron CRT TV and I always play PS1 and PS2 on the CRT TV.

PS1 works on any PS3 but is emulation.

Even when you connect a Wii to an LCD via component cables, GameCube games look worse than they do on CRT


These guys on YouTube do a great job of answering a lot of your questions. Check out their channel for more information on image quality and upscaling retro system HD TVs


No idea on the Amiga.
 
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Thanks for the replies guys, in retrospect my OP was probably too waffly so I do appreciate the responses :)

kinger8938 said:
I believe the best possible image quality for the dream cast is via VGA. Does your TV support this connection? I have an old trinitron CRT and use all my consoles via RGB scart but really Dreamcast onwards really want to be using methods like component or something more modern for the optimum of qualities I guess

With the PS3 do you already own it? If not you will need the original launch model to be able to run your PS2 and PS1 games from discs. However Sony have put out digital versions of some old games which will then run on any PS3 I'd imagine.
Click to expand...

My TV does support VGA but it is a HD LCD flat screen so will need to scale the image am considering other options like maybe an old CRT monitor I have that supports 480p natively (then again the reply below suggests it could be OK on LCD).

Have got the old PS3 and a PS2 - after further reading and the below answer it seems the PS2 is probably optimal for PS1 games (and potentially a better option than the original PS1 with the right display/connectors)

barmyllama said:
In my opinion, anything from the PS2 and before should be played on a CRT TV. Therefore if you intend on using an LCD display then you may as well emulate.

The Dreamcast and original Xbox hold up pretty well on an LCD screen.

The Dreamcast supports VGA so should have any issues with an LCD, although not all games support VGA.

Original Xbox supports component and up to 720p

Based on the NES Mini classic performed there may well be a certain amount of lag with the SNES mini, but I doubt anyone one other than speed runners and hardcore purist will be that bothered about.

The Mega Drive looks stunning on a CRT TV when connected via RGB Scart cables. As does the GameCube and SNES, PS1 and PS2.

PS1 on a PS2 isn't emulation since the PS1's main processor is on the PS2's mainboard. Either way they both PS1 and PS2 games look far better on CRT TV's than LCD. I actually have a Sony Bravia TV with a PS2 built in to it as well as a Sony Trinitron CRT TV and I always play PS1 and PS2 on the CRT TV.

PS1 works on any PS3 but is emulation.

Even when you connect a Wii to an LCD via component cables, GameCube games look worse than they do on an LCD.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the youtube link, I'll take a look - have been browsing/lurking some retro related forums and doing a bit of reading on various sites. I guess it does make sense that at least for my PS2 and mega drive I should try to get a CRT set (annoyingly I used to have a Sony Triniton somewhere at my parents but that seems to have disappeared).

Have heard about that re: the gamecube and the wii. This is why I was wondering about EDTVs, from what I can gather the wii and dreamcast can output 480p and EDTV is 480p( for simplicity - obvs supports the the PAL equivalent too) and ought to be fine to display 480i/240p as it doesn't require any awkward scaling but just doubling up (in fact some CRTs ought to support the different resolutions natively). My thinking is that though the consensus is that gamecube games through a Wii look crap this is probably due to scaling and people playing them on LCD TVs - I wonder if game cube games though the Wii on an EDTV (whether CRT or old school pre-HD plasma) would actually be optimal.

My thinking was that an EDTV would be great for Dreamcast, Wii (and gamecube games through the Wii), PS2 (and PS1 games through the PS2) - and perhaps older titles too... though this is the bit I'm less sure of, how well it will deal with 480i/240p - in theory it ought to be OK and at least the awkward scaling issues won't be there. I know from reading around that some Sony BVM CRTs support various resolutions from 1080i downwards natively but that actually the later consumer HD-ready Sony CRTs actually still upscale lower res inputs and so technically wouldn't be as good as standard CRT TVs (though probably wouldn't look as bad as HD LCD either) - there also seem to be some arguments about this on one forum - This is why I'm a bit unsure about the EDTVs.
 
Hmm while I had briefly heard of the PAL/NSTC thing (wasn't something I was aware of in my youth when playing the mega drive) I didn't realise it was an issue for even the PS2 too nor how games companies basically didn't bother optimising in most cases even up to the PS1 and simply released lazy ports of games in Europe/Australasia etc..

I think I've found the answers to my first few questions now - emulation is the way forwards! (have got my SNES mini classic on pre-order and there is a chance I'll buy a Switch in future if I get into it)

Saw this on another forum:

PAL (squished image thanks to different resolution but same number of lines in the actual game, slower game thanks to 50Hz vs 60Hz)

TEjGqIH.jpg


NTSC

YxsQULB.jpg



So my conclusion so far is - mega drive, master system, NES, SNES, PS1, PS2 (not all PS2 games affected in the same way and some optimisation done by developers but still) - emulation is the solution (or buy NTSC versions and a Sony BVM display - rather expensive and sometimes requires modding to use a non-**** display output)

Emulation seems to have an issue in some cases - UK Wii virtual console offerings are still the original crippled PAL versions

also in the case of the Game Cube the PAL versions don't support 480p - one good solution here seems to be a US Wii - could then play the non-crippled NTSC versions of SNES, NES and Megadrive/Genesis games from the US Nintendo store and can buy NSTC Game Cube Games that support 480p. I guess I can wait and see what the Switch offers in future too in terms of emulation offerings.

For PS1 and PS2 games it seems there is a similar issue, emulation would perhaps be better here too though you can use the North America play station store - it looks like the PS4 actually has a very good emulated version of PS2's GTA San Andreas

on the other hand in some cases there are PC variants of the PS2 stuff I'd want to play so perhaps won't bother much

Dreamcast - this doesn't seem to be an issue, I'll try my old school CRT monitor that natively supports 480p... maybe in future I'll get a decent EDTV CRT second hand and use it for the dreamcast and perhaps a US NTSC Wii for Wii and US Game Cube games... I think at the moment however emulation is perhaps the thing to do.
 
The other alternative is modified consoles.

I have a modded Mega Drive that plays games at 50 & 60hz. That means I can play PAL games at 60hz, even region locked games can be switched from 50 to 60 once you're in game. I can also play PAL Master System games at 60hz with a Master System converter.

Same with my PlayStation, PlayStation 2 and GameCube. They are all region free so I can play NTSC versions of games on a PAL consoles and enjoy games as the developer intended.

I used to have a SNES that had been modded to play 50 & 60hz games.

I would say that it's only worth it if you intend on playing retro games on a CRT TV.

You could argue that in some cases the expense of buying a modded console can be offset by the fact that a lot of the time NTSC or J-NTSC games can be cheaper than PAL games. Particularly when it comes to cartridge based systems.

Having said all of that my over riding opinion is if you are going to play on an LCD you may as well use emulation. And in that case you may as well do it on a PC or a Raspberry Pi.
 
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Well there is still the squashed screen issue even if modded to play at 60Hz instead of 50Hz - but yup I agree with your conclusion there. :)

Maybe I'll still get into the hobby in future (I still don't know for sure whether some Plasma EDTV could be the optimal dreamcast/NTSC game cube/Wii experience - then again modern LCDs are probably not too bad for 480p either). Only other thing is what to do re: the amiga and all my old games for that - I guess emulation is likely going to be the answer there too.
 
No.

When you play NTSC 60hz games you get full screen.

Here's a video I made to demonstrate.

At first I'm running the game on with the Mega Drive in PAL region. You'll notice squashed screen and slow music. Then I switch to NTSC and you can see the image go full screen and the music at the correct speed.

It was recorded on a phone so it's not the best quality and the audio is quiet, but you get the idea.

 
don't mean to be pedantic but your previous post talked about playing PAL games at 60Hz? That wouldn't change the screen size would it? (surely the TV would recognise it as still being PAL i.e. the larger resolution but simply higher frequency)? In that video you're playing an NTSC game no?

Or is it just outputting 240p to the TV regardless and the result is partly dependent on your TV?

I mean you can get PAL PS2 games that play at 60Hz - but the resolution will still be the PAL one 576i rather than 480i AFAIK

edit - I mean I guess my main point before was that simply speeding up a PAL game in itself shouldn't change screen size - unless they're all say 240p by default and the mod for the console changes both the output resolution in addition to the frequency. I guess this could cause issues for games that were optimised for the PAL region.

That is potentially interesting though, thanks for sharing the video - if I can mod my old megadrive and get the PAL games to play in proper resolution and at proper speed then that could be pretty cool - I guess also you need a relatively modern CRT TV - not all UK CRT TVs will necessarily handle NTSC?
 
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Master System games are region free. So a PAL game will run at 60hz and full screen on a modded or NTSC console.

Early Mega Drives didn't have region locked out so the same as above applies. Sonic is an example of slow music and squashed screen. Insert the Sonic PAL game in an NTSC or modded console and it runs at 60hz and full screen.

Some of the later PAL games were optimized for PAL systems so ran the music at the correct speed but still appeared squashed because the resolution wasn't changed from the NTSC format. Streets of Rage 2 for example, requires you to load them in PAL mode on the console and then you can switch to 60hz NTSC and the game runs at full screen.

PS1 and PS2 games require NTSC or J NTSC games to run at full screen and 60hz. So a PAL game on a modded console runs at 50hz.

I'll double check about PlayStation games when I get home.

Basically a modded PS1 or 2 depends on the region code of the game as to the game's refresh rate and how much of the screen it fills.

What I will say is PAL PS1 games don't look as squashed as PAL Mega Drive games.
 
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Ah I guess the 2D games are all 240p regardless - presumably your mod chip then either outputs 480i at 60 Hz or 576i at 50 Hz and your TV is capable of dealing with either

I mean simply speeding a game up shouldn't change the resolution so your mod is presumably doing something there too

There was later a PAL 60 Hz and used for some PS2 games I think - so you can end up with 576i at 60 HZ too I think... but it is only supported on certain games
 
dowie said:
Ah I guess the 2D games are all 240p regardless - presumably your mod chip then either outputs 480i at 60 Hz or 576i at 50 Hz and your TV is capable of dealing with either

I mean simply speeding a game up shouldn't change the resolution so your mod is presumably doing something there too

There was later a PAL 60 Hz and used for some PS2 games I think - so you can end up with 576i at 60 HZ too I think... but it is only supported on certain games
Click to expand...

Some GameCube games are PAL 60 as well, some are PAL 60 only.

As for the whole speeding up the game thing, it generally only applies to the Mega Drive, Master System, NES and SNES.

This video is a bit long but explains it far better than I did.

 
barmyllama said:
Some GameCube games are PAL 60 as well, some are PAL 60 only.

As for the whole speeding up the game thing, it generally only applies to the Mega Drive, Master System, NES and SNES.

This video is a bit long but explains it far better than I did.

Click to expand...

I understand the speed aspect I was questioning the change in resolution - I'm presuming your mod chip changes the resolution too as well as the speed?
 
That video explains the reason for squashed appearance of PAL games.

My Mega Drive doesn't have a mod chip. The reset button is wired to the motherboard to allow region switching. http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/console/sega/md1switches.htm

This basically changes the video output signal between PAL and NTSC. So between 50hz and 60hz. The resolution doesn't change because games are coded for NTSC displays that have fewer horizontal lines. Which on a PAL TV, which has more lines than NTSC, means the image appears squashed. I think.
 
barmyllama said:
That video explains the reason for squashed appearance of PAL games.

My Mega Drive doesn't have a mod chip. The reset button is wired to the motherboard to allow region switching. http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/console/sega/md1switches.htm

This basically changes the video output signal between PAL and NTSC. So between 50hz and 60hz. The resolution doesn't change because games are coded for NTSC displays that have fewer horizontal lines. Which on a PAL TV, which has more lines than NTSC, means the image appears squashed. I think.
Click to expand...

I know the games are originally developed for NTSC - this is what I was referring to back in post #11 re: the games being 240p - and NTSC is 480i, obviously PAL is 576i thus the squashed screen

AFAIK after doing some more reading around the megadrive and other old consoles actually just emit 240p (or 288p for PAL with extra lines/boxing added)

what I don't know however is what is happening with your mod - it must surely be switching something to cause a 288p output, point is that simply increasing the frequency from 50 to 60Hz shouldn't have any impact on the resolution (which is why I mentioned PAL can also output 60Hz)

Out of interest was it a PAL game you were playing or an NTSC one in the video you posted?

(sorry if this is all a bit trivial/mundane)
 
The game was MUSHA, an NTSC game, it was never released in PAL regions. But as you can see, it plays in PAL region console at PAL speed and, as you put it, 288p. Or 240 NTSC of game plus 48 lines of extra border.

All Mega Drives start out capable of outputting a video signal for all three regions, PAL, NTSC and J-NTSC.

At the factory they wire the motherboards up to output a video signal one specific region.

My modded system has all three regions enabled.

So any cartridge I insert, regardless of being PAL or NTSC, the console outputs the video signal that I choose by holding down the reset button to cycle through each region.

The only exception are games that are specifically region locked and check the systems region before loading. So my copy of PAL version of Streets Of Rage II will not load if the console is set to NTSC or J-NTSC. However, once the game has passed the region check, I'm free to change the console to NTSC and play the game full screen.

Does that make sense?

Or another way

All games start as 240p 60hz games.

That game at 240p 60hz is placed on a PAL region cartridge

PAL systems are told output the same game at 288p 50hz.

Hence 48 extra lines of video signal output that the game has no code for. So the rest of the 288p image is made up of solid coloured lines.

That's basically how interpret what's going on.
 
barmyllama said:
All Mega Drives start out capable of outputting a video signal for all three regions, PAL, NTSC and J-NTSC.
Click to expand...

ah, that is the bit I was missing/didn't know about

yup and then following on from that the rest of your post above makes perfect sense now - thanks for having the patience to explain :)
 
No problem.

The YouTube channel, My Life In Gaming, I posted a video from earlier really does go through almost every system and how to get the best image quality from it.

Well worth watching.
 
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