Yeah, Barca. Neymar was a massive marketing machine for Barca, he was the heir apparent to Messi and he was pretty vital to the team. Do you honestly think they would have sold him if the money was simply an offer from PSG and not triggering his buyout clause. Not a chance.
Summer Transfer Window 2017/18 - Rumours & Signings
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Yeah, Barca. Neymar was a massive marketing machine for Barca, he was the heir apparent to Messi and he was pretty vital to the team. Do you honestly think they would have sold him if the money was simply an offer from PSG and not triggering his buyout clause. Not a chance.
As much as I agree that our general performance wasn't great vs Hoffenheim (or Watford for that matter) we still went away to a side that's been unbeaten at home for 15 months and won and created enough chances to have score 4 or 5 goals that day too. Missing Coutinho wasn't our issue in either match we've played this season - it's been our lack of control in midfield.
As for his value - isn't that how every value is reached? The willingness of the seller to sell and how badly the buyer wants to buy?
Pogba was only worth £90m because Utd were desperate to sign him, no other side were willing to pay that much. VvD is only worth £50-60m this summer because Liverpool are desperate to sign, despite some weak links to Chelsea & City it appears nobody else is willing to pay that much.And it's not now or never for Coutinho - there's always a market for players with his ability and profile. I've actually said previous to this summer that Coutinho to Barca was only ever going to be as a replacement for Iniesta and even the reports this summer are stating that Barca hadn't planned on bidding for Coutinho until next summer for that very reason. It was only after losing Neymar, getting bags of money and being under pressure to buy now that they're doing so. You're right if they can't sign him they'll sign somebody else because clubs like Barca make decisions to appease fans so that the president gets elected again. If they miss out on Coutinho they'll go out and spend a stupid fee signing somebody far inferior like a Gomes or Paulinho and in 12 months they'll still be looking for an Iniesta replacement.
I agree there's a need to sign another CB and CM but unless we're going to completely change the way we play (which we won't) then we need very specific types of CB & CM for it to make a noticeable difference. I know exactly what you mean when you say Hyypia but we're coming back to what I was getting at in my last post. Even at his absolute best Hyypia couldn't play in this side and would struggle just as much as any CB we have. When we're looking for a CB the first thing we need to look at is how suited they are to playing in a side the defends high up the pitch - how capable are they defending large spaces when getting broke on and how well they defend one on one situations. That has to be the priority given the way we play - if you have defenders that can cope in those situations better then you're not going to end up on the back foot and having to defend set plays as much. If it so happens that you can get a CB that combines that ability with the strengths of a 25 year old Hyypia then great - that person is VvD btw.
It's the same story with our midfield. There would be no point signing Didi Hamann. We're a high energy, pressing team that looks to dominate possession - Didi wouldn't even break into a jog most games and never left the centre circle. The priority for any midfielder we sign is their ability to play our pressing game and can play when they get on the ball because again, if you're doing that part of the job right, there's less emphasis on the defensive side of the role. Like with the CB, if we can sign a midfielder that has pressing & passing game along with that horrible, cynical side to his game then great.
If we can't get those very specific types of players then it will make things harder but just being a little bit more smarter and street wise at times would go a long way to improving our defensive problems.
Hoffenheim could have had 4-5 goals as well if they could attack or finish. They caught Liverpool out a lot over the course of the game but made stupid mistakes when it came to the final shot or ball. I watched the whole game and the scoreline flattered Liverpool against a side that ultimately didn't look very good. Liverpool never look good at the back but Coutinho at least means that going forwards you look much more dangerous.
As for his value - isn't that how every value is reached? The willingness of the seller to sell and how badly the buyer wants to buy?
Pogba is a very very good player, very marketable, still young and will keep getting better. Based on his form at Juventus he might not have been worth quite 90m but he was certainly worth around that figure. Barcelona are used to paying under a players value if anything usually. When they come calling, players want to go. I'm sure Barca did want him (and yes, perhaps next year) but they are in a position now where they either buy him for silly money now or they have to come back with the same offer next summer. They will have been hoping to get him for about half what is being suggested now before the loss of Neymar and that would have been seen as a lot I am sure. Yes transfers have gone a bit nuts but Coutinho isn't anywhere near being one of the best players in the world.
I think it probably is. Liverpool won't want to sell him for less next summer and either Barca will sign a different player this summer/january or they will have had another year to find a suitable replacement. Coutinho at the moment is a really expensive panic buy. That won't be necessary next summer.
I would be willing to put a substantial amount of money (£20) on the idea that if Coutinho doesn't leave Liverpool for Barca this summer he will not end up there next summer unless Liverpool accept far far less than they are currently being offered.
Not that I agree that the scoreline flattered us (we had more and better chances than they did) but the point I was making was that we didn't miss Coutinho that day. We had no problems creating chances our problems were at the other end of the pitch. Using the Hoffenheim game as a reason why we need to keep Coutinho seemed strange.
Again not that I agree (this marketable stuff always does my head in) but the point I was making is that a transfer fee is always dictated by how desperate a side is to keep a player and how desperate a side is to buy a player. Pogba was worth £90m because that was the balancing point between Utd and Juve's desperations. To say Coutinho is only worth x because Barca desperately want him is stating the obvious and applies to most expensive signings. Kyle Walker was only worth £50m because City were desperate, Matic was only worth £40m because Utd were desperate - to no other clubs were these players worth these fees just like Pogba wasn't worth £90m to Real or VvD isn't worth £50m to Utd.
And I'm hoping to win the lottery. Anybody with a brain cell knows that Coutinho wouldn't have been available for £45m (half of what they've offered) no matter what Barca hoped. Teams no longer are forced to sell players, especially if those players have long contracts and for every time Barca have been able to negotiate a decent fee, there's 3 times where they've spent huge fees on absolutely average players. They've just spent nearly £40m on Paulinho for crying out loud. As I said, they make decisions purely to appease fans and they'll carry on doing it - if and when they can't sign Coutinho or Dembele they'll end up spending just as much on somebody because their fans will turn on them if they don't.
Coutinho may not be one of the best players in the world but he's better than Pogba is/was or Lukaku is/was and they've been sold for similar amounts to what Barca have offered - there is no reason why Liverpool would ever sell him for less than that sort of fee because it will cost them stupid money to replace him. I can't see into the future so I wouldn't say for certain whether Barca will be in for him again next summer but it's very possible that they or a Real, PSG or Bayern will be. You're right when you say we won't sell him for much less than what's been offered though which is why I can't see how we can lose out by not accepting Barca's £90m offer. If that offer doesn't materialise next summer we keep the player - I'd rather keep the player. The decision for Liverpool comes if and when Barca make a really big offer - if they offer (as some say they might) £120m+ then Liverpool have to think because that sort of offer probably won't come around again. But who knows - if we revisited the summer 2013 thread I'm sure there were lots of people saying that Liverpool were mad to have rejected Arsenal's £35m offer for Suarez and they'd never get more than the £40m offer that followed.
I was working off the rumours that Barca had offered over £110m in their latest offer which would mean half of that is £55m. I have no idea why they just spent £36m on Paulinho. There is just no logic there.
There are plenty of players in the PL I would rather have over Coutinho and two of those are Pogba and Lukaku. Pogba at Juve was a better player than Coutinho is and we will see how he does this season when he is played in his natural position. Lukaku is an almost guaranteed 20 goal a season striker which is worth its weight in gold. Talk to most fans outside of the Liverpool bubble and they will tell you he is a good player but nothing like as good as Liverpool fans suggest. Top players are universally appreciated and praised, Coutinho just isn't on that level.
Replace Coutinho and Liverpool with Pogba and Utd and supporters of other teams don't say good, they say average
I have no desire to get into a who's better debate but I think it's very fair to say Coutinho is worth similar money to either of those players at the very least.And £45m or £55m was never going to be enough to sign Coutinho, everybody knows that. Even if Liverpool were open to selling because of the fees that other sides have paid and how much it would cost for them to sign a replacement, they were never going to accept much less than £90m odd.
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Crazy.
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Doubt they can afford much more on one player as the rest of the team also needs strengthening.
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How they finished Merit (position) + TV TOTAL WINNINGS (including £84.4m each)
1st - CHELSEA £38m + £30.4m £152.8m (1st)
2nd - TOTTENHAM £36.1m + £27.6m £148.1m (Equal 4th)
3rd - MAN CITY £34.2m + £30.4 £149m (2nd)
4th - LIVERPOOL £32.3m + £31.4 £148.1m (Equal 4th)
1st - CHELSEA £38m + £30.4m £152.8m (1st)
2nd - TOTTENHAM £36.1m + £27.6m £148.1m (Equal 4th)
3rd - MAN CITY £34.2m + £30.4 £149m (2nd)
4th - LIVERPOOL £32.3m + £31.4 £148.1m (Equal 4th)
It's not just every club knowing Barca have money, it's the fact that as soon as anybody sells to Barca, they're suddenly in Barca's position. Rory Smith said something on 5Live the other day - if Liverpool sell Coutinho for £120m, we'll then go for somebody like Pulisic and his price goes from £50m to £100m. We'd be signing an inferior/unproven player for almost as much as we'd get for Coutinho.
True, if he stays be interesting to see how he performs for us this season.
Especially as it's world cup year
Be interesting to see how Coutinho reacts and performs considering he wants to leave.
In one way I think it's good that clubs are standing up to other clubs/players, but on the other hand i'm not sure it's the wisest move.
In one way I think it's good that clubs are standing up to other clubs/players, but on the other hand i'm not sure it's the wisest move.