google employee's internal diversity memo goes viral

I have already posted a link here:
http://blogs.plos.org/scicomm/2017/...ance-of-evolutionary-processes-and-privilege/

The anthropologist at Notre Dame explains why he is critical of the suggestion that biology or evolution in gender difference is relevant to google's policy, he points to a lack of evidence to support the claim and gives a very brief "current understanding" of human development and gender.
He is also generally critical of the selective nature of the science and research presented!

There is an ongoing effort to assess the validity of some of the claims made in the manifesto via broader meta analysis rather than the selective approach of the manifesto it self.

https://heterodoxacademy.org/2017/0...es-the-research-say-about-gender-differences/

They don't touch on pertinent gender difference of biological traits formed via evolution, on that topic they say.



None of this is to say he is totally wrong on all points, just that he makes numerous selective and some highly debatable claims and others that appear entirely unsupported by science/evidence as far as I can tell and pointed out by both above links.

I haven't a direct reliable source that explains how/who set it free, if a google official/group did so, I'd say it's a massive PR own goal and as the document has parts to it that are admirable and reasoned, they (assuming they did) have put themselves in a lose lose situation!

As to the (less scientifically relevant) motivation of the author, what would most companies make of a low level employee that writes a manifesto about said companies echo chamber and entire ethos? Wikileaks have already offered him a job and he seems busy doing the rounds of news outlets including alt right nutters, from the title to the content, casting him as an unsuspecting victim is so naive it must be a joke?

I have read your anthropologists article.... have to say I'm far from impressed... here's just one example of why....

'Men hunted and fought one another? For the vast majority of human evolution we do not have clear evidence that only men hunted.'

ONLY MEN? Notice how he talks in an absolute and further confuses the matter by referring to the 'vast' majority of human evolution. Where exactly did 'human' evolution start by his own definition? With the emergence of hominids, mammals or life itself as evolution is a continuing process?

No ones going to sensibly say ONLY men hunted before the establishment of farming and the move away from hunter gathering.. but why does he not talk about the evidence that gives us an indication as to the ratios between the sexes and why it may have changed???

Well lets look at his own source......

Ill summarise some important points


'It appears that Neandertal males, females, and juveniles alike participated in a narrow range of economic activities that centered on obtaining large terrestrial game. This apparent absence of regular economic differentiation in Middle Paleolithic cultures (including that of the Neandertals) is consistent with the distinctive features of human demography and anatomy of this period'

so some 30,000 to 300,000 years ago we don't see much difference in roles between sexes for our ancestors who were competing with other hominids - life in this period would have been hard short and rather brutal for all concerned so it is likely a survival necessity to have 'all hands to the pump' in terms of both hunting and gathering


'Better evidence for foraging economies based on a range of complementary subsistence roles coincides with the emergence of the early Upper Paleolithic. Such cooperative economic systems may have given Upper Paleolithic humans a demographic advantage over Neandertals and their contemporaries, facilitating the rapid expansion of Upper Paleolithic culture throughout Eurasia.'

'Nonetheless, recent humans are remarkable for cooperative economies that combine pervasive sharing and complementary roles for individuals of different ages and sexes'

So between 30,000 and around 10,000 years ago our human ancestors started to develop a range of 'complementary subsistence roles' (read differentiated by age and gender) and that this provided an advantage over competing hominids! And in more recent humans gendered and aged roles are pervasive.

Well I never its as if someone were to suggest that its not that the sexes can't perform the same roles but that there may be explanations as to why certain roles may be carried out more by one sex then the other for good reason!

The author even comments that the humans of the past (showing less gendered roles) were very different to modern humans with both sexes being far more 'robust'....

'And, importantly, earlier humans were substantially more robust that we are today…that is, a large percentage of females in the past were more robust than many males are today'


Lets move on.....


'That women sometimes become successful hunters and men become gatherers means that the universal tendency to divide subsistence labor by gender is not solely the result of innate physical or psychological differences between the sexes'

So now we get to the point ..... your Phd man was setting up a false argument in his ONLY men statement wasn't he! Because that's NOT THE POINT! In recent hunter gathering humans ' some' women performed some roles more often performed by men but the overall trend was vastly towards gendered roles as this was a proven and successful evolutionary strategy!

'The basic generalization from which we begin is the nearly axiomatic** division of subsistence labor by gender and age documented in virtually all recent foraging peoples: put most simply, men hunt, women and children gather'
'This basic form of gendered division of labor is expressed both in ideology and in practice in nearly every ethnographically documented foraging group.'


** axiomatic - aksɪəˈmatɪk/ - adjectives 1. self-evident or unquestionable.


Oh dear it not looking very promising for your idea that biological sex differences doesn't account for at least a substantial amount of the differences we see in how modern women and men act and the routes they take in life

For an additional point about the author not once does he mention sexual selection! Which is rather relevant to sexual dimorphism within a species.

Sorry prof you get an F - from me




BUT WHY STOP THERE... LETS LOOK AT THE SOURCES POLTICAL AFFILATIONS VIA THE USEFUL PORTAL OF HIS TWITTER PAGE....

(I accept that this moves on from arguing his point to actual ad hominem attack but I think it's interesting to consider the authors political views and any biases he may appear to hold...)

Retweets Communist SJW slogans!!!!!

"In a racist society it is not enough to be non-racist. We must be anti-racist." - Angela Davis

What was I saying about academia being infested by Marxist thought again??

LOTS OF ANTI TRUMP CONTENT BUT LACKING CRITISCM OF THE EQUALLY ODIOUS RECENT DEMOCRAT LEAD - CHECK

LOTS OF ECHO CHAMBER RETWEETS ABOUT HIS ARTICLE TO AFIRM HOW RIGHT ON HE IS - CHECK

LACK OF ANY CRITISCM OF EXTREMISM AND VIOLENCE ON THE LEFT ITS ALL THE 'ALT RIGHT' AND 'FACISTS' - CHECK

RETWEETS EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL TO AGITATE FOR UNLIMITED MIGRATION INTO THE USA - SOD ANY CONSEQUENCES - CHECK

'ON AUGUST 4, 1944, 73 years ago, the Nazis found Anne Frank. In 1941, the U.S. denied the Franks immigration. @POTUS: #NeverAgain to anyone.' (Retweet August 4th)

HINTS AT SOME RATHER IRRATIONAL BELEIFS FOR SOMEONE STUDYING HUMAN HISTORY - CHECK

Agustin Fuentes‏ @Anthrofuentes Aug 4

Multi species companionship in the afterlife?

SUPPORTS 'POSITIVE' DISCRIMINATION AGAINST WHITES - CHECK!

Agustin Fuentes‏ @Anthrofuentes Aug 1

Major problem in higher ed is discrimination against white students? #levelplayingfieldisBS

(in response to this article about moves to get rid of 'Affirmative action' (a term dishonest people use to try and put a spin on DISCRIMINATION)




Yeah like he has no political bias to DISHONESTLY REPRESENT SCIENCE to push a Marxist world view!
 
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Just checking in on this thread... have all the academic supporters of the sacked employee now been discredited/brushed under the carpet so soon?

I remember reading there were a bunch of them saying his manifesto was mostly well-reasoned?
 
Can I assume that @stewski decided that silence was the best policy when I eroded his/her/other pronoun of choice's ability to hide behind an appeal to authority by saying 'look this man has a PhD and he doesn't agree with the memo, ergo I must be right?' by pointing out that his prof was an 'affirmative action' supporting communist/Marxist SJW sympathiser who had set up a straw man argument with his NOT ALL argument when of course Damore's memo was not about an absolute position (i.e. claiming that there was NO WOMEN in tech or that ALL WOMEN were less suited) but was an attempt at a hypothesis of a sorts to explain why we see differences in gender numerical distribution in jobs like tech?

(lets not also forget that in memo dishonestly branded 'anti diversity' by larges swathes of the media that he actually suggested some measures he thought might actually increase the amounts of women in tech without needing to resort to direct discrimination!)
 
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Can I assume that @stewski decided that silence was the best policy when I eroded his/her/other pronoun of choice's ability to hide behind an appeal to authority by saying 'look this man has a PhD and he doesn't agree with the memo, ergo I must be right?' by pointing out that his prof was an 'affirmative action' supporting communist/Marxist SJW sympathiser who had set up a straw man argument with his NOT ALL argument when of course Damore's memo was not about an absolute position (i.e. claiming that there was NO WOMEN in tech or that ALL WOMEN were less suited) but was an attempt at a hypothesis of a sorts to explain why we see differences in gender numerical distribution in jobs like tech?

(lets not also forget that in memo dishonestly branded 'anti diversity' by larges swathes of the media that he actually suggested some measures he thought might actually increase the amounts of women in tech without needing to resort to direct discrimination!)
1. You can assume anything but it makes an ass of u and mption!
2. The guy has a blog, post your 'analysis' there if you feel what you have posted supports the claim of pertinent evolutionary, biological difference to googles policy.
3. Do address the other source who also cannot support the biological claims but do point out that the manifesto entirely fails to acknowledge that biological factors are not proven to be 'hard wired'.

https://heterodoxacademy.org/2017/0...es-the-research-say-about-gender-differences/

Do join the discourse if you feel informed on the topic, it will be interesting.
 
In the end, they sacked the guy for his beliefs. If it was a religious or feminist rant, you wouldn't see them trying to publicly villainize him in the same way. It would be swept under the carpet and anyone who speaks up told to be silent.

If this was in Europe and not the US, the employer would end up being sued for unfair dismissal.
 
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1. You can assume anything but it makes an ass of u and mption!
2. The guy has a blog, post your 'analysis' there if you feel what you have posted supports the claim of pertinent evolutionary, biological difference to googles policy.
3. Do address the other source who also cannot support the biological claims but do point out that the manifesto entirely fails to acknowledge that biological factors are not proven to be 'hard wired'.

https://heterodoxacademy.org/2017/0...es-the-research-say-about-gender-differences/


Thought so you've got nothing.....you relied on him to argue your point.....


I pointed out his argument was wrong and quite likely a deliberate dishonest straw man attack on Damore's memo, I further demonstrated had he has a clear ideological bias as he is in favour of DISCRIMNATION which was what the google memo was arguing AGAINST and your response was

1) a poor attempt at comedy... you were rather active in this thread up until I posted my go at a rebuttal of the prof and then you went strangely silent until directly challenged?

2) suggestion that I should go argue with him direct........ - he's your source, you relied upon him to support your argument! I have demonstrated that hiding behind his apparent authority as a holder of a Phd whilst being a prof working at Notre Dame (something you were very keen to stress in your previous posts) may not be the best policy... do you have an argument of your own or are you able to articulate an argument that doesn't solely rely on a third party?

3) When I have a bit of time I happily have a look at your 'other' source (you may appreciate that I took some time to even partially dissect your profs argument here...). But given the lack of rigour demonstrated in your reliance on your Notre Dame PhD man I wont be holding my breathe that Ill find your second source all that convincing.....


Would you be happy with a prof at a leading college tweeting slogans spouted by national socialists/ fascists? Why does Marxism/ Communism get such a free ride in the minds of so many when its abundantly clear that the outcomes of this failed ideology are wicked? Don't think I suggested a witch-hunt in academia for people holding certain views? Strangely its the left these days that leads the way in ideological witch hunts.....

Do join the discourse if you feel informed on the topic, it will be interesting.

Pure comedy gold coming from the person suggesting I go argue somewhere else because you can't/ won't? argue your point a bit more independently here......
 
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I have had a quick look at your other source and cant say I'm all that impressed either....

you originally stated....

https://heterodoxacademy.org/2017/08/10/the-google-memo-what-does-the-research-say-about-gender-differences/

Having a quick scan read here (which seems pretty well considered) my tl:dr
They skip the entire debate about "biological" and "evolutionary" statements as they see them as pretty much unsupportable at this point in time.
Meta analysis don't show massive variation in maths ability by gender, but large variation in interest.

My problem with the google engineers points is expressing opinions without good evidence about biological gender difference in compsci is potentially reducing interest in the field from able candidates.

All that said, I support hiring based on capability, not eye colour, hair colour, gender or other unlikely to predict anything useful trait. Still one useful trait is, not pooing where you eat.

Well guess what biology and evolution doesn't just affect 'abilities' it also affects 'behaviours'. Sexual selection in particular favours a lots of males across a wide variety of species to adopt a far more risky and aggressive approach them the females of their species to life because the trade of to this (in nature) is an increased likelihood to mate and reproduce against males who adopt a safer, less risky path. The more cautious individual males may live longer themselves then their risk taking peers but if they don't breed or breed less then there more adventurous counterparts then natural selection will tend to weed out their genes from the pool. Its for this reasons that its important to understand that natural selection works at the gene level and not the level of individual animals. Natural selection allows for the promotion of strategies that are actually harmful to the longevity or wellbeing of the individuals concerned just as long as they promote and increased chance of successful reproduction.

I'm not going to be tied to agreeing with all of Damore's memo but the overall gist of it was memo and women are different, that these differences are often more noticeable in behaviours of the sexes as groups and that these differences in part may account for the differences we see in numerical distributions.

The conclusion of your article seem to largely confirm this

'2. Gender differences in interest and enjoyment of math, coding, and highly “systemizing” activities are large. The difference on traits related to preferences for “people vs. things” is found consistently and is very large, with some effect sizes exceeding 1.0. '

Now unlike your PhD prof I'm not going to dishonestly adopt the absolutist point that all of these differences in interest are down to biological rather than societal factors but given their pervasive, ubiquitous nature for humans found all over the globe for at least around 10,000 years I'm going to suggest that biological factors must play a significant part

By the way I love the irony of posting a link from an organisation that says this...

'Our mission is to increase viewpoint diversity.'

and...

'as long as there are some people with a different political perspective in every field and every department, we can assume that eventually, someone will challenge claims that reflect ideology more than evidence.'

Given what this thread is all about (the firing of an employee for wrong think!)
 
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So because spiders get their heads bitten off after mating, men are more suited to coding and a tech environment than women?



Spiders do show sexual dimorphism often far more acutely then humans (who also show significant sexual dimorphism) and that this dimorphism doesn't just effect physical attributes but behaviour as well not sure specifically what spiders have to do with this thread otherwise.... but do feel free to keep posting anything vaguely tangentially related to the subject at hand
 
Now some ex-employees of google claming they were being "racially discriminated" against because they were being "ignored". It can't possibly be because... you know... they just wern't very good at their job or anything, right? :/

Always got to be someone else's fault. Or if in doubt play the racist (or sexism) card.
 
Well Google did just basically say it will hold up a minority as being better than a white man, regardless of talent, so if they don't immediately bend over for the loud complainers that are inevitably going to speak up, then they're just a **** company rather than a racist one.

Ofcourse if they do, then it pushes white men to other companies, with possibly a special desire to hurt Google as much as possible.
 
Thought so you've got nothing.....you relied on him to argue your point.....


I pointed out his argument was wrong and quite likely a deliberate dishonest straw man attack on Damore's memo, I further demonstrated had he has a clear ideological bias as he is in favour of DISCRIMNATION which was what the google memo was arguing AGAINST and your response was

1) a poor attempt at comedy... you were rather active in this thread up until I posted my go at a rebuttal of the prof and then you went strangely silent until directly challenged?

2) suggestion that I should go argue with him direct........ - he's your source, you relied upon him to support your argument! I have demonstrated that hiding behind his apparent authority as a holder of a Phd whilst being a prof working at Notre Dame (something you were very keen to stress in your previous posts) may not be the best policy... do you have an argument of your own or are you able to articulate an argument that doesn't solely rely on a third party?

3) When I have a bit of time I happily have a look at your 'other' source (you may appreciate that I took some time to even partially dissect your profs argument here...). But given the lack of rigour demonstrated in your reliance on your Notre Dame PhD man I wont be holding my breathe that Ill find your second source all that convincing.....



Would you be happy with a prof at a leading college tweeting slogans spouted by national socialists/ fascists? Why does Marxism/ Communism get such a free ride in the minds of so many when its abundantly clear that the outcomes of this failed ideology are wicked? Don't think I suggested a witch-hunt in academia for people holding certain views? Strangely its the left these days that leads the way in ideological witch hunts.....



Pure comedy gold coming from the person suggesting I go argue somewhere else because you can't/ won't? argue your point a bit more independently here......
I think you should post your 'evidence' on either blog.
All I have asked for is evidence of the claim made in the manifesto that there are evolutionary/biological differences pertinent to googles policy!

Nothing you have posted offers that, but it would be interesting / hilarious to watch you join the discourse directly!

P.S. Im on my holiday, it can't all be marxist/nazi conspiracy theories every day.
 
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I'd just like to say on this subject:

Either gender can pursue any career they like, its all down to social stigma - completely innocent in that fact.
I for one, as a male would not like to become a nurse even if it had the potential of earning a lot of money from it. Some people even some men enjoy being a nurse - that's completely fair enough! I am not condoning them even slightly for choosing that way of earning money!
If I was a woman there is no way what so ever that I'd choose to go and fight in battles or wars, I mean who wants that way of life anyway? - males have the testosterone for fighting - THAT is 100% a fact compared to women.

So yes I 100% agree with that ex-Google employee. Through and through. I am not even slightly mocking women in any way shape or form. Personally I wish I could be a woman - make babies and raise them - that is pure natural humanity, instead I have to be a bloke - and to be honest I'm intent on being single forever all because of the modern law and social system. I say allow Islam culture to over rule our justice system, I mean at the end of the day - who cares? as long as the *majority* of our country are in agreement, right? yeah, certain people just think about that, I mean really... think about it.

And for the record, I'm an Atheist. All religions are fakes, perhaps one religion is real? - there is no way of proving which is real, therefore no god can be real. If a god requires prays then it could easily make lesser beings love and prayer to it. But sorry, not for as long as completely innocent children, of any racial background suffers from any way shape or form, literally any god that exists is a total and utter, total evil devil. No just no, no way what so ever I'd follow any god.
 
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Pure comedy gold coming from the person suggesting I go argue somewhere else because you can't/ won't? argue your point a bit more independently here......

I've continually asked for evidence of any form of pertinent biological, evolutionary difference between men and women that relates to google policy!

As for arguing my point independently, I'm not the one making the claim, the onus is on those making such claims to support them with evidence, I've yet to see such evidence, if I did I'd take a different view, that's the point of science.

I don't care if a bot, you, a Marxist, a Fascist or a google engineer creates a hypothosis, without evidence the manifesto has opinion presented as fact!
 
As for arguing my point independently, I'm not the one making the claim, the onus is on those making such claims to support them with evidence, I've yet to see such evidence, if I did I'd take a different view, that's the point of science.
Evidence? what was the evidence like before female birth contraception? oh you know, for the last, I dunno.... millions of years?
Even if women are smarter than men. So what? - when a woman wants her own way and violence is the result which gender is almost always the person to carry out the brutality? - man or woman? yeah... obvious is obvious, and yet men are the evil or beneficiaries.
 

By the way I love the irony of posting a link from an organisation that says this...

'Our mission is to increase viewpoint diversity.'

and...

'as long as there are some people with a different political perspective in every field and every department, we can assume that eventually, someone will challenge claims that reflect ideology more than evidence.'

Given what this thread is all about (the firing of an employee for wrong think!)

Given that the supposed Marxist PhDer also links to their meta analysis and at no point do they present evidence of evolutionary biological gender difference pertinent to googles policies, perhaps you need to reconsider your whole, them and us approach to 'science'?

As I already posted, the only thing that source had to say on evolutionary and biological difference is below:


In this review, we also do not address Damore’s claims that some gender differences are rooted in biological factors, such as the effect of prenatal hormones on brain development. Meta-analyses cannot tell us the origins of differences. Most researchers studying these questions assume that biology, childhood socialization, and current context interact in complex ways, and most psychologists know that pointing to a biological contribution (such as a genetic or hormonal influence) does not mean that an effect is “hard wired,” unmalleable, or immune to contextual variables (see Eagly & Wood, 2012; this is a point that Damore did not acknowledge).

You seem to have skipped the above entirely, whilst quoting data unrelated to pertinent biologic/evolutionary difference, data which I already summarised.
 
Evidence? what was the evidence like before female birth contraception? oh you know, for the last, I dunno.... millions of years?
Even if women are smarter than men. So what? - when a woman wants her own way and violence is the result which gender is almost always the person to carry out the brutality? - man or woman? yeah... obvious is obvious, and yet men are the evil or beneficiaries.
Not sure if serious, if so, with this level of scientific debate you are really spoiling us :)
 
Not sure if serious, if so, with this level of scientific debate you are really spoiling us :)
"Not sure if serious"?
lol, really?
Have you never heard of the term - "vagina rules?"
its literally men's greatest weak point, women however hold their ground. Moral of the story - women rule.
 
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