Barcelona Incident

Amp34 said:
Here's the US data that I was talking about. We're talking cross purposes.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...k-data-domestic-terrorism-and-whos-behind-it/

Yes, last year wasn't a good year on the terrorism front in Europe. There's definitely been an upswing in the last couple of years, but as shown above it's still way below the heights we saw at the end of last century.

We need to deal with the problems, but let's deal with all the problems realistically. A terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist, so let's deal with them equally. Arguing that we should intern millions without trial and banning millions from renting vehicles is not a realistic solution, just as it wouldn't be a realistic solution if we were to include white non Muslims in those incarcerations and bans.

Yes, yes, apologist talk etc etc. We should be jumping down the throats of people that aren't like "us" instead, I get it...
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I'm not advocating putting millions of people on trial, the majority of muslims are good people, like most of the human race, the problem is not the majority, the minority are the ones that kill. They are the ones that we as group in this thread are talking about, and, it's about ratio's. I find that link you posted hard to believe, only because, as i previously mentioned, a podcast with an intelligence expert saying that they have 20 x the amount of people working on Islamic terror over far right terrorism. It's going to be difficult to find..but i'll have a go.
 
Trusty said:
I'm not advocating putting millions of people on trial, the majority of muslims are good people, like most of the human race, the problem is not the majority, the minority are the ones that kill. They are the ones that we as group in this thread are talking about, and, it's about ratio's. I find that link you posted hard to believe, only because, as i previously mentioned, a podcast with an intelligence expert saying that they have 20 x the amount of people working on Islamic terror over far right terrorism. It's going to be difficult to find..but i'll have a go.
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Not suggesting you are. There are however a number of people advocating those things in this very thread, its not the rational people discussing things sensibly I was talking about.

For example:

robgmun said:
We can't, anything the general public can do to help stop it are branded "Racist" and "Islamophobic" and can (and frequently are) reported to the police. We can barely even say anything these days without repercussions. See that MP that was fired by Corbyn over saying undisputed FACTS!

So we're left with an impotant government that rather rwing their hands rather than calling a spade a spade.

Guess what... this will come across as profiling, but if we stop anyone with a middle-eastern name being able to hire a van across Europe, these attacks will slow down significantly. But no one has the balls to do something so radical
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Also just to clarify, the advocation is to incarcerate people without trial or judicial process. Literally lock people up without a trial because they are on a watch list (only if they're Muslim though, white non Muslims not so much apparently). Arazi is a specific advocate of this method.

There's also the discussion about internment of all Muslims, again in this thread. There's only 10 pages in this thread, all the posts are still likely to be there.

Anyway, you can go and look for yourself regarding those numbers. There are plenty of sources stating similar things. I believe there's also an official us government site out there with those figures as well.

The US seems to have a bigger problem with the far right than perhaps Europe does.
 
Amp34 said:
The US seems to have a bigger problem with the far right than perhaps Europe does.
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About 40% of my client base resides in the US in a variety of different demographics and geographics....in short all over America.

A couple of days ago a friend of mine based in NJ was talking to me about the purge on Confederate statutes in the US. His issue isn't the fact that they are being pulled down, it's more why and the timing of them being pulled down. He feels it's an issue that's been forced under social duress from the recent events in Virginia. It's not something that people necessarily want to happen but it's a snap reaction as white America is forced to prove again that it isn't racist anymore.

It's stuff like this that breeds resentment in the US, and actually has the opposite effect of the intention. There is a revolution coming and the growth of the far right whatever your view on it is, is an equal and opposite reaction to the far left who have been left unchecked. The social balance is trying to restore itself.

The same could be said of the growth in Islamic terrorism. I have stated before that I believe that Islam has a whole could do more to disassociate itself with ISIS. Other posters have put up stats and facts detailing cases on where Muslims do try to and defeat the enemy from within. Then i read stuff like this from Islamic scholars and religious leaders:

muslim_2.jpg

muslim_1.jpg


So here I am again asking for Muslims to do more than they are to defeat the issue.

I am certainly not left, but I am certainly not far right. By asking the Muslim community to do more I am not branding all of them terrorists, but they need to look at themselves and ask what can they do. This isnt just our problem, its also theirs. Islam has its back to the wall, and it either comes out and accepts that the cracks in its religion allows extremist to permeate and works to deal with it, or it stays silent on the issue and we see more resentment, mistrust and potential backlash against them. Maybe Daesh want this to happen, but the millions of peaceful muslims out there who just want to live a normal life wont.

Like the case in the US though, my view has the danger of breeding resentment in the Muslim community, as they may feel forced to disassociate themselves with something they believe they have nothing to do with, and they push back.

Like everyone its a situation of heightened emotion because we are being asked to question our own identity, and we are asking the same of others.

Its a horrific situation that I dont see ending anytime soon. Whatever we see now with social and religious division, its only the start.
 
Rifte said:
He feels it's an issue that's been forced under social duress from the recent events in Virginia. It's not something that people necessarily want to happen but it's a snap reaction as white America is forced to prove again that it isn't racist anymore.
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I wonder if there has been some kind of organised campaign - mid to late July, early August sites like BBC and CNN, etc. were chock full, like 75+%, of the front page entries were new through to extreme obscure and old dragged up stories and articles about things like women priests, feminists Muslim controversies, partition and apartheid, LGBT issues, gender neutrality, anti-racism and anti-sexism and various other social justice issues, etc. etc. suddenly post Virginia its dropped off to like the more normal 20%.

It almost seemed to me like some kind of attempt to force a new "normal" perspective.
 
Rifte said:
He feels it's an issue that's been forced under social duress from the recent events in Virginia. It's not something that people necessarily want to happen but it's a snap reaction as white America is forced to prove again that it isn't racist anymore.
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IMO there's no "feel" about it. That is the reason it happening, not for any "proof white america isn't racist" however, but because of the disgust at the actions seen in Charlottesville. No town or city wants a group of nazis and supremacists to march in their town for starters.

And all this complaint about the left and the far left. The difference is they aren't killing anyone, whereas the far "right" are doing it all the time. Whether it be neo-nazis and supremacists or organisations like ISIS who are another quintessential far right group fighting for very similar reasons to the neo-nazis. They're shaped from the same cloth.

The rise of these organisations and movements are because of the feeling of outside intervention, the dilution and change of "their" culture, internationalism and the general dissolusionment with the way the world is going. Add in a little thirst for power and you have them, whether it be Neo Nazis and Supremacists or ISIS.

As you say though it is a horrible situation, and I too don't see it ending any time either, I just hope perhaps this will be one last big hurrah before things progress forward to a more equal and liberal* existence.

*by that I mean actual liberal, not the us bastardisation of it.
 
Amp34 said:
Islamic terrorism is taken out of all proportion to the risk it actually poses in everyday life.
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That's a week argument along the same vane as the 'it's only the minority, the majority are peace loving' argument. Issues shouldn't be addressed and prioritised based purely on the historical chance of dying from it.

Amp34 said:
And all this complaint about the left and the far left. The difference is they aren't killing anyone, whereas the far "right" are doing it all the time.
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Errr... I think you're confused about what left and right actually means. Hitler was far left ('socialist' party) and he killed a fair few people. All the political mass murderers of recent times were far left. The Nazi party was far left.
 
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Participant said:
That's a week argument along the same vane as the 'it's only the minority, the majority are peace loving' argument. Issues shouldn't be addressed and prioritised based purely on the historical chance of dying from it.
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No, but the chance of being affected by it should be a significant factor should it not? What else do you suggest?

Participant said:
Errr... I think you're confused about what left and right actually means. Hitler was far left ('socialist' party) and he killed a fair few people. All the political mass murderers of recent times were far left. The Nazi party was far left.
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Probably worth you actually looking into the Nazi party, rather than just making assumptions based on the name.

Either way it's rather irrelevant as it has nothing to do with the situation we were discussing today, unless you're also here to claim today's Neo-nazis are "left" wing?
 
Participant said:
Errr... I think you're confused about what left and right actually means. Hitler was far left ('socialist' party) and he killed a fair few people. All the political mass murderers of recent times were far left. The Nazi party was far left.
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I'm actually amazed that people are this ignorant

As someone pointed out in another thread, do you think the democratic public of North Korea are actual democrats because it's in their name?

Nazis were as right wing and facist as it gets
 
VincentHanna said:
Nazis were as right wing and facist as it gets
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That's common wisdom, but unfortunately you're incorrect. Fascism is a trait of modern left-wingers. Leftists display all the characteristics of fascist politics. They look and act like fascists. They just don't like to admit it.

The Nazis were racists and categorised and treated groups of people based on their race. The left does the same in reverse. To white people.

So although the left won't like it, they're displaying more of the characteristics of fascism than the right.

Mussolini, the founder of fascism, was a left-wing marxist and recognised as such by Lenin.

Hitler was a national socialist and changed the name of his party to reflect this.

The left just ignores the fascist element of leftism for convenience.
 
That's certainly the angry white male school of thought on the internet

It's completely barmy and wrong, but hey-ho.

Tosno claimed the in another thread that BLM were more facist and evil than actual Nazis. Anyone with half a brain can see that is BS
 
Participant said:
That's common wisdom, but unfortunately you're incorrect. Fascism is a trait of modern left-wingers. Leftists display all the characteristics of fascist politics. They look and act like fascists. They just don't like to admit it.

The Nazis were racists and categorised and treated groups of people based on their race. The left does the same in reverse. To white people.

So although the left won't like it, they're displaying more of the characteristics of fascism than the right.

Mussolini, the founder of fascism, was a left-wing marxist and recognised as such by Lenin.

Hitler was a national socialist and changed the name of his party to reflect this.

The left just ignores the fascist element of leftism for convenience.
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Finally someone gets it
 
At either end of the spectrum groups will look to stifle debate and free speech, particularly criticism of their beliefs. All as bad as each other at that point.
 
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