HR people; the Bradford Factor, dismissal and its legality?

[FL630]

I've got into a spot of bother with my employer over some recent absences which has triggered their "absence management program", which uses the delightful Bradford Factor to deem if I'm taking the **** or not.

I've had a a worse than average year of health which has made me trigger the procedure and progress to "stage 3", effectively my final warning before dismissal becomes an option.

My question is to those who may get these things, can a person legally be dismissed if they are deemed to have had too many days off due to illness? This job not only requires a higher than average level of health, but legally states that I cannot work if I am even mildly unwell. It seems to be a very blunt tool to treat a delicate subject. I have my meeting coming up where they decide if this is my final warning, where they will also give me a 12 month window that if I am ill between now and then, they will fire me.

It all seems a bit grey on legal front. I will be getting legal advice pending the outcome of the interview with my manager, but should I go into this meeting confident that they are unable to do anything, or should I be getting twitchy?

 

[BDEE]

Yes, you can be dismissed due to poor attendance through ill health.

What is in your contract regarding these seemingly special conditions about not working due to being ill? Does it mean if you have a sore throat you are forbidden from attending work?

 

[FL630]

Yes, you can be dismissed due to poor attendance through ill health.

What is in your contract regarding these seemingly special conditions about not working due to being ill? Does it mean if you have a sore throat you are forbidden from attending work?

Effectively, yes. I'm a pilot and have to maintain a medical. Sore throat maybe not, but a cold, yup! Tooth work needing a local? That's 48hrs off. It is prescribed in our rules that we follow.

Does that change the outcome of an absence if it is a legal requirement to have the time off work?

 

[something daft already!!]

How long have you worked there? If less than two years you have limited rights but over two years you will have full employee rights. You can be dismissed but they must follow the correct processes. They could dismiss you on the grounds of capability.

 

[Rroff]

They could dismiss you on the grounds of capability.

One place I worked where someone was dismissed over something very roughly similar at the tribunal the company was pulled up on the fact they didn't put the person to desk work and make a proper attempt to fit them into another job within the company. IIRC though the person was still out a job and only awarded a few grand not even a years salary.

Got out of there not long after though their approach to their employees in general was terrible - managers frequently phoning me up to come in on my day off because it was an "emergency" because they couldn't be bothered to do their job, etc.

 

[Delvis]

If you have accompanying documents for your time off (doctors notes stating what's been done or why you are ill) then that will help.

I would have thought that you have to let your employer know why you're having the time off and again provide actual proper reasons.

 

[BDEE]

I am not sure if the presence of the contract clauses make a difference, but common sense would say that it should do, especially if you are not allowed to work with a cold. Do you have some kind of employee handbook which outlines any additional guidelines which you can refer to?

Are you in a union?

I wouldn't be able to help any more than suggesting these as it seems very quirky with this specific contract clause - Hopefully someone else in your industry might see this and be better placed to comment.

 

[FL630]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

What is in your contract regarding these seemingly special conditions about not working due to being ill? Does it mean if you have a sore throat you are forbidden from attending work?

My health and fitness is regulated by the Civil Aviation Authority, the European Aviation Safety Authority and ultimately the International Civil Aviation Organisaion. It's incredibly strict, and rightfully so (dead pilots are useless pilots ) and is all written down in what is effectively our law. A cold can give you blocked ears, not noticeable on the ground or if you work in an office, but to work in an aircraft you can easily get a popped ear drum. A cold was just an example, but even stupid things like a local anesthetic or if you have to take new medication, both require 48hrs off.

If you have accompanying documents for your time off (doctors notes stating what's been done or why you are ill) then that will help.

I would have thought that you have to let your employer know why you're having the time off and again provide actual proper reasons.

All illnesses has been correctly documented, my last one I was told by our in-house doctors to "get yourself to A&E, fast!". It's been done correctly on my part. It seems that the company are sticking very rigidly to this Bradford score rather than looking at the big picture and seeing that it is unavoidable. They know as much as they need to know without knowing the gruesome details.

Are you in a union?

Yes and since this post they will be representing me in this meeting.

How long have you worked there? If less than two years you have limited rights but over two years you will have full employee rights. You can be dismissed but they must follow the correct processes. They could dismiss you on the grounds of capability.

Sadly less than two years. I assume I have almost no employee rights at this time? Capability would be scraping the barrel on their part. In the last 6 months I've had 3 days off, I'd say my attendance is exceptionally good.

One place I worked where someone was dismissed over something very roughly similar at the tribunal the company was pulled up on the fact they didn't put the person to desk work and make a proper attempt to fit them into another job within the company. IIRC though the person was still out a job and only awarded a few grand not even a years salary.

Got out of there not long after though their approach to their employees in general was terrible - managers frequently phoning me up to come in on my day off because it was an "emergency" because they couldn't be bothered to do their job, etc.

This is what I don't want it to escalate to. For my line of work I would never get another position within the industry, effectively this would be career ending. I'm a big fan of putting my head down, getting on with my work and nobody knowing my name or who I am. I seem to be failing at accomplishing this

 

[Jokester]

Can't really help, but good luck and hope it works out for you.

 

[Deleted member 651465]

person legally be dismissed if they are deemed to have had too many days off due to illness?

Absolutely. Why would a company employ someone that can't make it in to work?

Appreciate that ill health can take its toll but it's their rules, so providing they follow them you're stuffed.

 

[esmozz]

Good luck.

If you're a member of BALPA and theres a rep at your company ensure they are at the meeting. Document everything and like poster above says, external legal advice would'nt hurt. I don't know much about the Bradford factor but I do know the industry and it can be a shabby place at times. I assume you're working in the UK - if you're some place like China or somewhere then anything goes.

If I may make a couple of observations however - I've been flying for 20 years and I've never heard of having 48 hours off for a local anaesthetic i.e for dental work or for taking a new medicine, at least not as a general rule (some medicines are, obviously, disqualifying). Unless its part of your company procedures or maybe I've just never heard of it, if so my bad but i'd be very surprised. (I got my class one around about 1997 and I've never heard of what you're saying in all the time since - I fly on a foreign license now but I'm pretty sure the medical rules are pretty much identical across EASAland).

The reason I say this is because if you have misunderstood the rules and are calling the crew dispatchers telling them you're taking 48 hours off due to having a filling it is probably going to **** people off. They might not say anything but you can be sure it's noted.

3 Days in 6 months is nothing but what, if I may ask, is the figure for 12 months? The reason I ask is because I strongly suspect the average absence rate of aircrew due to sickness in your company will be significantly higher than that and it would be unusual to single you out just for that.

Try and find out what the average sickness rate is - they might refuse to tell you but that in itself could tell you something.

Finally, and I'll just throw this out there, are you sure you haven't ****** off the wrong people in your company? I've seen it happen before - it can be an industry driven by ego rather than measured common sense at times and if the wrong person is set against you it can cause big problems. If you come though this unscathed it might be something to consider.

Again, good luck.

 

[Delvis]

Tbh, my wife had similar she was off for probably about a couple of month all in over a year, bearing in mind she was in hospital on two or three of those occasions and couldn't work as she had to have cotton wool stuffed into her head ever two hours for a few weeks....

It's probably part of their process, they have to follow it up as it is company policy to do so.

Get your paperwork, get your emails, get the in house doc to say or give you a signed form stating they said get to A+E and take it from there.

Again though, your contract should say something about sickness and take this factor thing into account.

 

[Scuzi]

I'm really surprised to read this. Such behaviour from your company is severely detrimental to a just culture and completely at odds with encouraging pilots to behave in a safe manner.

Are you aware of CHIRP? I have been involved in a few consultations to the advisory committee and I would strongly recommend you consider a report when all is done, whatever the outcome.

 

[Scuzi]

I've been flying for 20 years and I've never heard of having 48 hours off for a local anaesthetic i.e for dental work or for taking a new medicine, at least not as a general rule (some medicines are, obviously, disqualifying). Unless its part of your company procedures or maybe I've just never heard of it, if so my bad but i'd be very surprised. (I got my class one around about 1997 and I've never heard of what you're saying in all the time since - I fly on a foreign license now but I'm pretty sure the medical rules are pretty much identical across EASAland).

.

For controllers on an EASA class 3 anything involving local anaesthetic or an invasive procedure requires notification to the competent authority. I can't recall from the top of my head how long there has to be after the procedure/medication.

 

[FL630]

Good luck.

If you're a member of BALPA and theres a rep at your company ensure they are at the meeting. Document everything and like poster above says, external legal advice would'nt hurt. I don't know much about the Bradford factor but I do know the industry and it can be a shabby place at times. I assume you're working in the UK - if you're some place like China or somewhere then anything goes.

If I may make a couple of observations however - I've been flying for 20 years and I've never heard of having 48 hours off for a local anaesthetic i.e for dental work or for taking a new medicine, at least not as a general rule (some medicines are, obviously, disqualifying). Unless its part of your company procedures or maybe I've just never heard of it, if so my bad but i'd be very surprised. (I got my class one around about 1997 and I've never heard of what you're saying in all the time since - I fly on a foreign license now but I'm pretty sure the medical rules are pretty much identical across EASAland).

The reason I say this is because if you have misunderstood the rules and are calling the crew dispatchers telling them you're taking 48 hours off due to having a filling it is probably going to **** people off. They might not say anything but you can be sure it's noted.

3 Days in 6 months is nothing but what, if I may ask, is the figure for 12 months? The reason I ask is because I strongly suspect the average absence rate of aircrew due to sickness in your company will be significantly higher than that and it would be unusual to single you out just for that.

Try and find out what the average sickness rate is - they might refuse to tell you but that in itself could tell you something.

Finally, and I'll just throw this out there, are you sure you haven't ****** off the wrong people in your company? I've seen it happen before - it can be an industry driven by ego rather than measured common sense at times and if the wrong person is set against you it can cause big problems. If you come though this unscathed it might be something to consider.

Again, good luck.

I hadn't heard of this 48hrs for a local either, however a colleague had some dental work done and his AME said 48hrs. Personally I'd probably never bothered to even think about it but you know what our medical rules are like!

Figure for 12 months, well that's another kettle of fish. 39 days due to loss of Class 1 medical with labyrinthitis (they include long term sickness in our figures), 9 days for a cold with blocked eustachian tubes, 1 day for food poisoning and 2 days for something I'd rather not write on a public forum If you remove my loss of medical from the equation, that gives 12 days, which I do not feel is unreasonable.

As for ******* people off, who knows! I try to remain under the radar to the best of my abilities but this issue has put me in the spotlight.

I'm really surprised to read this. Such behaviour from your company is severely detrimental to a just culture and completely at odds with encouraging pilots to behave in a safe manner.

Are you aware of CHIRP? I have been involved in a few consultations to the advisory committee and I would strongly recommend you consider a report when all is done, whatever the outcome.

I 100% agree, the culture is not good. It's putting me under a fair amount of undue stress too which I don't think is helping my health either. I have heard of CHIRP but didn't think of it. I'll take a look.

 

[Quartz]

As a pilot you'll be on decent money

Junior pilots don't make much money.

 

[esmozz]

OP, from what you've written, your days off, whilst a bit high, really doesn't seem that bad. I have no hard and fast numbers but from working with people over the years what you've described really isn't out of the ordinary. Particularly if the bulk of the days you had off (39) was properly documented and prescribed by an AME. I know of people who have had far more time off with no adverse consequences to their career. It happens, particularly as you get older.

I be surprised if they wanted to fire you for what you've just described. Like I said previously, you could have rubbed somebody important up the wrong way but to be honest you're probably going to know about that. Or they're trying to manage you out if you did something really stupid in the flight deck, but again, you're going to know if thats happened. And frankly, using your absences like that would be a daft way to go about it.

What it could be is that you've just triggered a procedure because somebodies spreadsheet in HR has flagged up your absences and they're following the procedure because they have to. It's probably most likely. They probably don't know the details and you can provide them in the interview, with documents etc. And hopefully that will be that.

In any reasonably sized airline I'd be very surprised if you where the only pilot with such a record of absences in a given year - its worth just asking around in the crew room (quietly of course) to see if anybody else has had this problem. If its a fairly routine thing I imagine that would be of some reassurance to you. I can honestly say I've never heard of anyone being fired from an airline solely on the basis of the absences you've described.

Regarding local anaesthetics, I really have no idea now. The CAA used to have a guidance document on their website for holders of class one's - I vaguely remember something about general anaesthetics, invasive surgery or anything requiring an overnight stay in hospital. However, I've been googling and searching the website and I can find no info either way. It doesn't seem particularly relevant to your case anyway.

 

[FL630]

OP, from what you've written, your days off, whilst a bit high, really doesn't seem that bad. I have no hard and fast numbers but from working with people over the years what you've described really isn't out of the ordinary. Particularly if the bulk of the days you had off (39) was properly documented and prescribed by an AME. I know of people who have had far more time off with no adverse consequences to their career. It happens, particularly as you get older.

I be surprised if they wanted to fire you for what you've just described. Like I said previously, you could have rubbed somebody important up the wrong way but to be honest you're probably going to know about that. Or they're trying to manage you out if you did something really stupid in the flight deck, but again, you're going to know if thats happened. And frankly, using your absences like that would be a daft way to go about it.

What it could be is that you've just triggered a procedure because somebodies spreadsheet in HR has flagged up your absences and they're following the procedure because they have to. It's probably most likely. They probably don't know the details and you can provide them in the interview, with documents etc. And hopefully that will be that.

In any reasonably sized airline I'd be very surprised if you where the only pilot with such a record of absences in a given year - its worth just asking around in the crew room (quietly of course) to see if anybody else has had this problem. If its a fairly routine thing I imagine that would be of some reassurance to you. I can honestly say I've never heard of anyone being fired from an airline solely on the basis of the absences you've described.

Regarding local anaesthetics, I really have no idea now. The CAA used to have a guidance document on their website for holders of class one's - I vaguely remember something about general anaesthetics, invasive surgery or anything requiring an overnight stay in hospital. However, I've been googling and searching the website and I can find no info either way. It doesn't seem particularly relevant to your case anyway.

Thanks Esmozz, appreciate you taking the time to reply. I really do think this is a spreadsheet style of discipline, I can't see how else it could have got to this stage. The Bradford scale takes into account the amount of periods of time off you've had, it's effectively the square of the periods of time off times the days off. A great system for catching the overly hungover, but not for this job. With four periods of time off, that 39 days turns into 624 "points", where as pulling 10 one day sickies wouldn't cause any issue.

Looks like from the advice above however I have little employment rights, fingers crossed BALPA are of help and I get to keep my job and more importantly, my career.

I know, which is why I only said decent. Enough to afford some relatively simple legal advice given his career is potentially at stake. It's not as though he's some minimum wage shelf stacker who has to rely on the CAB or whatever.

You'd be surprised. Starting wages in this industry are now around £24k, though I am a little bit in to the industry and mine is now higher, but still not what you'd expect. With training debts from £70-140k we do not live like kings "catch me if you can" style.

 

[john_s]

With four periods of time off, that 39 days turns into 624 "points", where as pulling 10 one day sickies wouldn't cause any issue.

10 one day sickies would give you 1000 points, so could hardly be described as not causing an issue...

 

[dowie]

I know, which is why I only said decent. Enough to afford some relatively simple legal advice given his career is potentially at stake. It's not as though he's some minimum wage shelf stacker who has to rely on the CAB or whatever.

exactly, seems like a no brainer tbh... if it is potentially something that could cost you many thousands more ditto to when people start new jobs and maybe have to sign non-compete agreements, NDAs, agreements re: IP rights/rights to side projects/stuff done outside work...

You'd be surprised. Starting wages in this industry are now around £24k, though I am a little bit in to the industry and mine is now higher, but still not what you'd expect. With training debts from £70-140k we do not live like kings "catch me if you can" style.

starting wages are irrelevant, tis the area under the curve that's important, you're in a good career and dealing with something that could cost thousands in lost earnings - I'd seek out the advice of a solicitor (or at least speak to someone from your union!)