Has Waitrose gone 'downmarket'?

[Amp34]

I was comparing the prices and quality from Sainsburys, Tesco and Waitrose. And judging from your last quote it seems you're struggling with what I originally said. So I'm going to end the discussion on this point rather than continuing correcting you.

This is what you said.

Actually, the butcher shown in the above picture has free range chicken that's cheaper and tastier than the large Sainsbury superstore up the road. In fact, I was talking to someone from the Ginger Pig who confirmed that the supermarket meat price is ridiculous for what it is.

So your evidence for the varying quality at supermarkets and independents is someone that works in an independent?

Basically, I feel most of supermarket meat tend to be bland compared to the butchers. Also pricing from the butchers are generally cheaper in my experience. So no, I don't agree with you.

And I feel that meat from a decent supermarket (and I class Waitrose as one, at least on the meat side of the spectrum) is just as good as from a butcher, like for like, while still being cheaper.

Not every supermarket is the same though, I've not had as much success with meat from say Tesco or Asda.

We shall have to agree to disagree here. Your feeling/experience is obviously different to mine.

Of course Supermarkets is out there to make a profit but the point I was making is that their buying power is fuelling their profits rather than giving the consumer a cheaper product.

The romantic view of local independents vs the evil supermarkets is your unhelpful view of the situation. I suggest throw in local economics and the fact that big businesses have loads of idiots working for them then suddenly there is no such thing as a romantic view.

And my point was that a local butcher is there to make a profit, just as the supermarket is. Both are businesses aiming to persuade customers to buy from them. Both want to portray an image to do that.

You appear to be expressing quite clearly that an independent is going to be better than a supermarket. My point is that things are variable, some supermarkets are better than others, some independents are better than others, some supermarkets are better than some independents and some independents are better than some supermarkets. The claim however that you appear to be making - an independent is inherently better than a supermarket - is false IMO and a romantic view of the situation (backed up by your last sentence IMO).

The local economics mean an independent has less buying power than a supermarket chain, and may have overheads. They don't really say much at all about cost, but it generally meams they can't compete on price, one of the reasons so many have gone under over the last 20 years.

 

[Top_gun]

Thanks, I'm going to end this discussion as you're going around in circles with a clear lack of connection on what I'm saying.

I'm a great fan of the work done on the local economics by the New Economics Foundation for many years and met a few of them in 2013. Hardly the naive person as you seemed to think in one of your earlier posts. How I think about local economics is going to be more indepth than yours. Sorry for the abrupt ending but I've been mindful to do this over the last few posts and fail to see where this discussion is heading. A few years ago I had a discussion with a couple of Morrison's butchers, years of experience working for independents/supermarkets, and they didn't rate Tesco, Sainsbury or Waitrose meat either. So at least I'm not alone in my views or understanding of the meat trade. I've bought meat from a wide range of suppliers, including Jack O'Sheas, and my taste buds is pretty much refined.

Have a good day.

 

[AndyCr15]

Ha ha, it is quite funny though. So the local butcher didn't rate his competitors meat... you don't grasp the simple point that was made that a competitor is unlikely to rate it well. Now you mention Morrison's butchers didn't rate their competitors meat, either. Isn't that odd?

 

[Telecaster]

My nearest Lidl is amazing - EVERY time I go there's about three other people in it, pretty much entire shop to myself, no crap music or in-store radio giving me ear cancer and they have an in store bakery from which the bread is very good.

The worst has to be the big ASDA, literally full of utter chavs walking around in slippers or shouting and swearing at their 12 kids.

We do service work for the Co-op and they are closing most of their old fashioned "big" shops/supermarkets in favour of their small local shops as they do a roaring trade in those, the big ones are hemorrhaging money.

No Waitrose around here so never been in one.

 

[Top_gun]

Ha ha, it is quite funny though. So the local butcher didn't rate his competitors meat... you don't grasp the simple point that was made that a competitor is unlikely to rate it well. Now you mention Morrison's butchers didn't rate their competitors meat, either. Isn't that odd?

I think I'm astute enough to know if someone is telling 'porkies' pardon the pun. It wasn't a case of naive me being persuaded by a bunch of corrupt butchers. All what they did was to confirm what I already knew. For me, the ultimate test is what the meat taste like and as long as you have a good taste palette then you really can't go wrong. It's a bit like buying a pair of jeans if you have a discerning eye for quality then the label on the product or other people's beliefs is immaterial. The Morrison's butchers do rate Aldi/Lidl meat though and often do their shopping there as well. Kudos to the Morrison's butchers because they explained the reason why meat from Tesco, Sainsbury and Waitrose tasted like it does - very bland.

 

[AndyCr15]

I think I'm astute enough to know if someone is telling 'porkies' pardon the pun.

Ha ha, sure. Okay, as you've said, there's no point going over the same arguments.

 

[Fusion]

Probably been answered, but no- it hasn't gone downmarket. The furore about the free coffee-abusers not long ago was funny though.

You perhaps feel that way because they've expanded rapidly in the past decade, with new supermarkets, city centre stores, service stations, etc. Ubiquity can have a negative effect on perception.

 

[Amp34]

Ha ha, it is quite funny though. So the local butcher didn't rate his competitors meat... you don't grasp the simple point that was made that a competitor is unlikely to rate it well. Now you mention Morrison's butchers didn't rate their competitors meat, either. Isn't that odd?

I went to the local Honda dealer recently and he told me that BMWs and Mercedes just aren't worth what they charge for them. Apparently they just aren't very good and his Hondas are so much better.*

*based on a semi true story.

There's also such a thing as personal preference, even for those with "refined" tastebuds. Perception is also a massive part of a successful business. Waitrose perception of being an "upmarket" supermarket, Asdas perception of being "cheap", an independents perception of being "better quality". The perception is almost more important than the actual product for a lot of people and it can change the way people exactly the same product (see blind taste tests and the tests where things are deliberately mislabelled).

The flip side is the negative perceptions brands have to deal with. Asda being for the "riffraff", Waitrose being for the "posh", BMW drivers being aggressive etc. All those perceptions influence views of people as significantly as the positives (in fact probably moreso). If you think something will taste better/worse from a certain shop then quite possibly it will, even if it's exactly the same product.

A good example is wine, where there are many articles showing what happens when only taste is considered. Take away the bottles, the labels, the names and the vineyards and even experienced wine tasters will happily pick a £4 bottle of wine over the £30 bottle they were raving about just recently.

Just the "experience" of buying the product (talking happily to your local butcher as you buy it, picking up the pre cut piece form your quiet, well kept supermarket or struggling through the crowds of unruly kids to grab the package from the fridge) can make a big difference to the overall experience of eating that piece of meat. Far more so than the difference between one cow in one field and another cow of the same species in another field. Thank our brains for that!

 

[Hater]

The posh image keeps the riff raft out, it's a good thing.

 

[Top_gun]

I went to the local Honda dealer recently and he told me that BMWs and Mercedes just aren't worth what they charge for them. Apparently they just aren't very good and his Hondas are so much better.*

*based on a semi true story.

Ah the car analogy of good value. Well in their minds.

This reminded when I was in a bathroom showroom in Queenstown near Battersea, London many years ago. I knew what I wanted and how much to pay. I knew this guy's prices were above market rates and he had this annoying habit of talking on top you very similar to what you are doing now. He justified his prices and claimed that I couldn't do what I want to do unless I increase my budget. What he really meant he could not command the profit margin he wanted. Due to the lack of connection I thought what he had to say was a complete a time since all he could talk about was analogies and branding rather than the quality of his products. I was pretty much exhausted with his arguments during my 30 minute stay. Not sure if his showroom is still around, pretty much lacking in style as you'd expect from a petrol head clearly lacking in dress sense, but I wouldn't buy from him though boy could he talk.

Personally, it's red flag warning whenever I hear someone using the car analogy as they unable to understand the nuance of their products and so engage in a one sided talk that means absolutely nothing to me.

* based on a real life experience.

 

[wilber]

Waitrose do demand higher standards of their UK suppliers. Pork for example must be reared on straw bedding and not slats, although these pig sheds hold 1200 pigs each and are reared on a contract basis. A local butcher will be sourcing from someone who has a fraction of that stock, which are likely to be reared outdoors and to a higher quality.

 

[AndyCr15]

Ah the car analogy of good value. Well in their minds.

This reminded when I was in a bathroom showroom in Queenstown near Battersea, London many years ago. I knew what I wanted and how much to pay. I knew this guy's prices were above market rates and he had this annoying habit of talking on top you very similar to what you are doing now. He justified his prices and claimed that I couldn't do what I want to do unless I increase my budget. What he really meant he could not command the profit margin he wanted. Due to the lack of connection I thought what he had to say was a complete a time since all he could talk about was analogies and branding rather than the quality of his products. I was pretty much exhausted with his arguments during my 30 minute stay. Not sure if his showroom is still around, pretty much lacking in style as you'd expect from a petrol head clearly lacking in dress sense, but I wouldn't buy from him though boy could he talk.

Personally, it's red flag warning whenever I hear someone using the car analogy as they unable to understand the nuance of their products and so engage in a one sided talk that means absolutely nothing to me.

* based on a real life experience.

Quite an odd post, when the comparison is valid in this case. Are you happier if he said an LG appliance salesman telling him a Samsung washing machine is rubbish. The product is kind of irrelevant, the point being for an unbiased opinion, asking someone with a vested interest (or their own 'horse in the race) is not the best idea.

Again, someone clearly struggling with simple logic, so I will be leaving it there.

 

[Top_gun]

Quite an odd post, when the comparison is valid in this case. Are you happier if he said an LG appliance salesman telling him a Samsung washing machine is rubbish. The product is kind of irrelevant, the point being for an unbiased opinion, asking someone with a vested interest (or their own 'horse in the race) is not the best idea.

Again, someone clearly struggling with simple logic, so I will be leaving it there.

Not at all, his argument only applies to people who likes simple analogies and arguments. I'm beyond that as I don't do, as a rule, follow other people's simple logic since I always pretty good at finding flaws in their logic, personality traits, or poor understanding of products over the years.

Amp34 called me naive for accepting the butchers' views. So if I'm so naive why is it I'm unable to accept his views? I had more of a connected, constructive and helpful conversation with the butchers and trust their opinion. Amp34, for me, displayed all of the warning signs for someone not to listen to or follow.

 

[moon man]

im a vegetarian due to a job that i packed in after afew hours at a meat processing place ,but in that disgusting hovel i did find out that most supermarkets share the same meat ,they were just changing the packing over but to be fair i didnt see any waitrose products
ive worked with places making waitrose products (not meat) though and they are very demanding and use the best ingredients

 

[Hater]

Being made in the same factory isn't an indication of the end product though, when screens are manufactured for phones, the ones that fail QC get bought and sold by aftermarket vendors. The 3rd party replacement screens you buy for a phone usually come from the same plant, it's just they're the ones that the first party rejected.

 

[Diddums]

Not at all, his argument only applies to people who likes simple analogies and arguments. I'm beyond that as I don't do, as a rule, follow other people's simple logic since I always pretty good at finding flaws in their logic, personality traits, or poor understanding of products over the years.

Amp34 called me naive for accepting the butchers' views. So if I'm so naive why is it I'm unable to accept his views? I had more of a connected, constructive and helpful conversation with the butchers and trust their opinion. Amp34, for me, displayed all of the warning signs for someone not to listen to or follow.

You sound like the kind of person who walks in to Harrods with 50p and asks for a gourmet burger because "you know what the market value is". In fact I suspect that your approach to shopping is probably the exact reason the Battersea Bathroom guy couldn't be arsed dealing with you.

 

[moon man]

Being made in the same factory isn't an indication of the end product though, when screens are manufactured for phones, the ones that fail QC get bought and sold by aftermarket vendors. The 3rd party replacement screens you buy for a phone usually come from the same plant, it's just they're the ones that the first party rejected.

pretty much agree as the supermarkets have their own specs and procedures the manufacturer follows but that factory was grim

 

[Top_gun]

You sound like the kind of person who walks in to Harrods with 50p and asks for a gourmet burger because "you know what the market value is". In fact I suspect that your approach to shopping is probably the exact reason the Battersea Bathroom guy couldn't be arsed dealing with you.

You're wrong on both accounts and you sound like someone who goes to a pound shop to pay £10 for an item.

I walked out on the Battersea Bathroom guy because I saw through his arguments, he had a crappy showroom and was asking for too much money for his crappy products.

 

[Diddums]

You've done nothing to change my impression of you.

 

[Top_gun]

You've done nothing to change my impression of you.

Okay then I go to Harrods with 50p to buy some gourmet burgers then, lol.