Anyone Voting in the Catalan Referendum?

friddela · 27 Oct 2017 at 15:18

Raymond Lin said:
I don’t understand why Catalan wants independence only to straight away want to join the EU. What’s the point of that?

And could they not do it in a way that is legal in the eye of the constitution? Surely there is a way, political leverage to get the Spanish government to offer a referendum rather than hold one illegally. A region just can’t say “I am now independent” and become independent, anyone with 2 brain cells knows that, anyone who doesn’t should go back to school. I respect their desire for independence but at least do it in a way that is legal recognised.

Indeed. A reporter asked a local the same thing... I switched off after she started her response with "The holocaust was initially legal..."

Uther · 27 Oct 2017 at 15:21

Raymond Lin said:
I don’t understand why Catalan wants independence only to straight away want to join the EU. What’s the point of that?

And could they not do it in a way that is legal in the eye of the constitution? Surely there is a way, political leverage to get the Spanish government to offer a referendum rather than hold one illegally. A region just can’t say “I am now independent” and become independent, anyone with 2 brain cells knows that, anyone who doesn’t should go back to school. I respect their desire for independence but at least do it in a way that is legal recognised.

I wouldn't want to be joined to a country whose police come in and beat the crap out of you just for writing an X in a box.

dowie · 27 Oct 2017 at 15:33

Raymond Lin said:
I don’t understand why Catalan wants independence only to straight away want to join the EU. What’s the point of that?

And could they not do it in a way that is legal in the eye of the constitution? Surely there is a way, political leverage to get the Spanish government to offer a referendum rather than hold one illegally. A region just can’t say “I am now independent” and become independent, anyone with 2 brain cells knows that, anyone who doesn’t should go back to school. I respect their desire for independence but at least do it in a way that is legal recognised.

But anyone with two brain cells also knows that they didn't have a legal route to independence and therefore rather limited options.

I think it is perfectly fine to want to be in the EU and not part of Spain, it isn't a federal superstate yet! I'm not surprised some of them want nothing to do with Spain given both Spanish history, attitudes towards self determination and recent events.

Obviously a 'legal' referendum that Spain recognises too is preferable but that hasn't been possible and potential outside mediators (EU etc...) have not been very forthcoming. It isn't an ideal situation at all but I can see why they did it and frankly the Spanish deserve it.

G-MAN2004 · 27 Oct 2017 at 15:38

Got to be one of the most relevant tracks right now...

muon · 27 Oct 2017 at 15:39

Arazi said:
Catalan Parliament have just voted for independence, Overwhelmingly.

70/135

Majority but overwhelmingly is a misrepresentation.

awaybreaktoday · 27 Oct 2017 at 15:42

Semple · 27 Oct 2017 at 15:47

Surely no other country will recognise Catalans independence? In fact recognising their independence would almost be an insult to Spain.

Can't really see much will come of this.

Hades · 27 Oct 2017 at 15:49

awaybreaktoday said:

Username is appropriate

Hagar · 27 Oct 2017 at 15:53

When I worked in Spain in 1979, there was significant disquiet with Catalonia being part of Spain.

dowie · 27 Oct 2017 at 16:02

Semple said:
Surely no other country will recognise Catalans independence? In fact recognising their independence would almost be an insult to Spain.

Can't really see much will come of this.

True, pretty much every country including the UK has stated that the constitution needs to be respected etc..etc.. Belgium is the only one to have paid some lip service towards mediation etc...

Obviously Spain will ignore the declaration and start to take over Catalonian institutions... however I'm not so sure re: the not much will come of this comment, I think there could be some quite turbulent times.

I'm very interested to see what they have up their sleeve re: this digital govt in excel that has been mentioned previously and what sort of chaos that might bring should Catalan civil servants start taking orders from it and undermining their new Spanish masters who've been sent from Madrid to assume control.

It is also going to be interesting (and slightly worrying) to see how the local police force reacts, I'd assume the Spanish might try to arrest the Catalonian leader now but I'd also assume that he perhaps has protection officers from the local Police - that could lead to a rather awkward situation.

I suspect there could be mass demonstrations and civil unrest, Spain might have learned their lesson after the TV footage of the referendum and will try to not make similar PR mistakes but then again they're not able to change the national Police and Guardia civil - the general authoritarian culture in their organisations, the hangover from Fascism etc.. that doesn't go away overnight, if/when they get involved again then some of the footage might not make Spain look too good. If that sort of thing escalates then you could start to see international condemnation and calls for talks/mediation with a third party... that is after all what the Catalonians have wanted and called for and it might take a bit of unrest in order to get it.

Arazi · 27 Oct 2017 at 16:03

muon said:
70/135

Majority but overwhelmingly is a misrepresentation.

I am pretty sure they stopped counting at 68 yes votes because that is all they needed, i watched it live and it was yes after yes after yes. That 70 doesn't seem right compared to what i watched.

Terminal_Boy · 27 Oct 2017 at 16:08

So, the Second Spanish Civil War is happening.

With the Germans supporting the fascist side again.

friddela · 27 Oct 2017 at 16:09

Arazi said:
I am pretty sure they stopped counting at 68 yes votes because that is all they needed, i watched it live and it was yes after yes after yes. That 70 doesn't seem right compared to what i watched.

The count was 70 for, 10 against and 2 abstained?

Terminal_Boy · 27 Oct 2017 at 16:10

Semple said:
Surely no other country will recognise Catalans independence? In fact recognising their independence would almost be an insult to Spain.

Can't really see much will come of this.

Wee Nippy is already on a plane to show solidarity with the Catalans.

muon · 27 Oct 2017 at 16:13

Arazi said:
I am pretty sure they stopped counting at 68 yes votes because that is all they needed, i watched it live and it was yes after yes after yes. That 70 doesn't seem right compared to what i watched.

friddela said:
The count was 70 for, 10 against and 2 abstained?

The ballot was boycotted by many. Articles have this in detail.

70 for, 10 against, 2 abstained and the rest didn't show up as the vote was not legal. There are 135 eligible votes.

Uther · 27 Oct 2017 at 16:22

muon said:
The ballot was boycotted by many. Articles have this in detail.

70 for, 10 against, 2 abstained and the rest didn't show up as the vote was not legal. There are 135 eligible votes.

Are you Spanish by any chance muon? You seem very, very anti Catalan independence.

rp2000 · 27 Oct 2017 at 16:26

friddela said:
The count was 70 for, 10 against and 2 abstained?

All of the opposition walked out before the vote, the chamber would normally be 135. Also at the last minute it became a secret ballot, but the outcome was the same.

dowie said:
It is also going to be interesting (and slightly worrying) to see how the local police force reacts, I'd assume the Spanish might try to arrest the Catalonian leader now but I'd also assume that he perhaps has protection officers from the local Police - that could lead to a rather awkward situation.

I doubt they will attempt to arrest him, they will simply dismiss him and high level ministers, to start with. Probably tomorrow morning. 0 chance they will try to arrest anyone very senior this weekend, maybe after Monday when the prosecutor looks into charging all the people who voted today with some kind of crime. Personally, I think Madrid will have learnt their lesson and will go out of their way to avoid any violent confrontations.

At 7pm local time Congress will discuss/announce the actual measures they will take in Catalonia. Tomorrow will be "interesting". But for today people seem to be celebrating in the streets (but more muted than I would have expected, due to the parallel political stuff going on in Madrid).

Edit: Might be 6pm. They seem to chop and change the times of when they do stuff in both parliaments a lot this week!

rp2000

mmj_uk · 27 Oct 2017 at 16:30

Western nations will never recognise Catalonia, if they did they'd have to recognise Crimea and they'd look two faced for not having done it sooner.

englishpremier · 27 Oct 2017 at 16:55

Raymond Lin said:
I don’t understand why Catalan wants independence only to straight away want to join the EU. What’s the point of that?

And could they not do it in a way that is legal in the eye of the constitution? Surely there is a way, political leverage to get the Spanish government to offer a referendum rather than hold one illegally. A region just can’t say “I am now independent” and become independent, anyone with 2 brain cells knows that, anyone who doesn’t should go back to school. I respect their desire for independence but at least do it in a way that is legal recognised.

If is has a military to back it up a region, area, principality, kingdom, or whatever can just declare itself independent. Pretty much how it's worked in a basic way since nations began. Catalonia doesn't really have a fighting force though.

muon · 27 Oct 2017 at 17:00

Uther said:
Are you Spanish by any chance muon? You seem very, very anti Catalan independence.

I am generally against the breaking of the law and will always try to represent the facts properly.

I'm not sure why a pro-independence person would feel presenting the facts of the vote properly is bad.

I am not Spanish though if that matters. I don't even really care, I'm neutral.