Anyone Voting in the Catalan Referendum?

[FoxEye]

"Crushing" any attempt? Last I checked Catalans weren't second class citizens aren't actually enjoy some of the best living conditions in the entire country.

As usual context is key. Any coup d'etat or illegal declaration of independence requires very extraordinary circumstances for someone to sympathise with the breaking of the law. It requires the state to be breaking international law in my mind which Spain has never done to the people of Catalonia. They have not engaged in ethnic cleansing, persecution of culture, religion or treating the citizens any less than an in the rest of Spain.

To even compare it to the historic examples of unilateral declarations of independence where the situation is far far worse is a betrayal of what those states went through and why they resorted to it.

So when did we break international law wrt to Scotland? In modern times. Did we do any of the things you mentioned? Did we persecute them?

And yet they still have a large indy movement and we were prepared to let them vote on it. And we will let them vote on it again, should they wish, at some point in the future.

The question is, is it ethical impose your rule on a sizeable group of people - whoever they might be - that do not wish it. Is it ethical to force a large section of your country to remain part of something they wish to leave. Is this always a case of majority rule, where the majority can/should be able to force the minority to stay/comply?

And would we be praising Putin if some part of Russia wanted to secede, and he used threats/riot police/force to stop it? Is this a case of might makes right?

 

[dowie]

As usual context is key. Any coup d'etat or illegal declaration of independence requires very extraordinary circumstances for someone to sympathise with the breaking of the law. It requires the state to be breaking international law in my mind which Spain has never done to the people of Catalonia. They have not engaged in ethnic cleansing, persecution of culture, religion or treating the citizens any less than an in the rest of Spain.

To even compare it to the historic examples of unilateral declarations of independence where the situation is far far worse is a betrayal of what those states went through and why they resorted to it.

So we should have legally been able to hold onto colonies of the former Empire against their wishes so long as we didn't break international law?

 

[muon]

So we should have legally been able to hold onto colonies of the former Empire against their wishes so long as we didn't break international law?

We could have if we wished. Yes.

However the very poor treatment of colonies is very well documented and so we would have been breaking many modern international laws.

 

[dowie]

We could have if we wished. Yes.

However the very poor treatment of colonies is very well documented and so we would have been breaking many modern international laws.

right but it is the principle I'm interested in discussing I wasn't asking about 'could' but 'should', you also dodged my previous question

 

[muon]

right but it is the principle I'm interested in discussing I wasn't asking about 'could' but 'should', you also dodged my previous question

In this case like I said there aren't any extraordinary and desperate need for independence which requires people to break the modern democracy that exists in Spain.

It is why no other modern state would condone or support this.

 

[dowie]

In this case like I said there aren't any extraordinary and desperate need for independence which requires people to break the modern democracy that exists in Spain.

It is why no other modern state would condone or support this.

OK bt you're still not answering the questions?

 

[Rroff]

In this case like I said there aren't any extraordinary and desperate need for independence which requires people to break the modern democracy that exists in Spain.

Where do you draw the line though? it seems a lot of this has blown out of supposedly Puigdemont feeling (wrongly or rightly) that Spain was ignoring any attempt to raise certain issues and he was hitting a brick wall - which would match up with the way he hasn't gone directly at independence but used it as a spectre to try and get talks. Spain however seems to be going down the path of either declare independence or shut up which (possibly intentionally) is not addressing the problem.

 

[D.P.]

Where do you draw the line though? it seems a lot of this has blown out of supposedly Puigdemont feeling (wrongly or rightly) that Spain was ignoring any attempt to raise certain issues and he was hitting a brick wall - which would match up with the way he hasn't gone directly at independence but used it as a spectre to try and get talks. Spain however seems to be going down the path of either declare independence or shut up which (possibly intentionally) is not addressing the problem.

What is the difference between that and say people in NE England claiming London-focused government are ignoring them so they should seek independence?

 

[dowie]

What is the difference between that and say people in NE England claiming London-focused government are ignoring them so they should seek independence?

I'd say that is a step further along the scale with say overseas colony on one side and group of yokels wanting to declare a micro state on the other

Catalonia sees themselves as a nation, they already have some autonomy, have a separate language/identity - it is more comparable to Scotland wanting to break away than some area of Northern England

 

[muon]

So when did we break international law wrt to Scotland? In modern times. Did we do any of the things you mentioned? Did we persecute them?

And yet they still have a large indy movement and we were prepared to let them vote on it. And we will let them vote on it again, should they wish, at some point in the future.

The question is, is it ethical impose your rule on a sizeable group of people - whoever they might be - that do not wish it. Is it ethical to force a large section of your country to remain part of something they wish to leave. Is this always a case of majority rule, where the majority can/should be able to force the minority to stay/comply?

And would we be praising Putin if some part of Russia wanted to secede, and he used threats/riot police/force to stop it? Is this a case of might makes right?

The SNP used politics within the law to achieve their goals. This has been discussed in detail before in this thread.

They equally had no basis ever to unilaterally declare independence.

If St Petersburg declared independence tomorrow I would have no problem in principle the democratically elected government of Russia to assert control.

If you think this is similar to say Chechnya then you are using incorrect analogies. Barcelona is not a war torn suppressed area of Spain.

If California ever decided to secede then the Federal US government has every right to prevent that. Even if that means treating belligerents as people breaking the law.

 

[dowie]

The SNP used politics within the law to achieve their goals. This has been discussed in detail before in this thread.

They equally had no basis ever to unilaterally declare independence.

but you keep missing that in this case the law simply doesn't allow it - just stating that it is illegal isn't necessarily a good argument if the law is unsound in the first place and prevents any possibility of people exercising self determination

 

[dowie]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...e-direct-rule-parliament-latest-a8019781.html

Catalonia's vice-president has said that the Spanish government has given them "no choice" but declare independence.

Oriol Junqueras said his party, one of the two in the ruling separatist coalition which forms the Catalan government, is "going to work toward building a republic" because they have a "democratic mandate" following a referendum earlier this month.

Seems like Spain is going to kick off this article 155 on Friday... I wonder if we'll see any moves from the regional government tomorrow re: independence or if the games will continue with a full declaration not being made and article 155 being executed a bit at a time while the regional govt attempts to undermine it

 

[Arazi]

Catalan Parliament have just voted for independence, Overwhelmingly.

 

[Hades]

Um. This will be interesting.

 

[Arazi]

Um. This will be interesting.

Aye.

Another leg kicked from under the EU.

 

[jimjamuk]

popcorn at the ready.......

Do I think Catalonia will get Independence? No

Do I think Spain will manage to make itself look really bad in the process? Yes

This is just a stepping stone for independence another day with some bad memories of how Spain dealt with this one to stop it happening

 

[Malt_Vinegar]

Can of worms, everywhere...

Well played Catalonia. this will make things interesting

 

[friddela]

Article 155 to be imposed; interesting times indeed!

Imagine working for the local police, local government etc. I presume they will send in Spanish personnel to run things.

 

[D.P.]

Aye.

Another leg kicked from under the EU.

It has nothing to do with the EU

Im pretty sure Catalonia will be desperate to stay in the EU

 

[Raymond Lin]

I don’t understand why Catalan wants independence only to straight away want to join the EU. What’s the point of that?

And could they not do it in a way that is legal in the eye of the constitution? Surely there is a way, political leverage to get the Spanish government to offer a referendum rather than hold one illegally. A region just can’t say “I am now independent” and become independent, anyone with 2 brain cells knows that, anyone who doesn’t should go back to school. I respect their desire for independence but at least do it in a way that is legal recognised.