Anyone Voting in the Catalan Referendum?

D.P. · 27 Oct 2017 at 20:10

I might declare independence of my House and back yard, that way I dont have to pa Trump any taxes. Who cares about the legality of i, people have to have a right to self-determination! I'm pretty sure I could get my neighbors to join, they are working really hard to try and move abroad to avoid the Tyranny of Trump. If we all huddle other and declare independence we woudln't even have to go through the faff of selling our houses.

Raymond Lin · 27 Oct 2017 at 20:13

dowie said:
It isn't exactly the same at all... China is rather different to Spain ergo the same approach would likely generate a very different response!

I disagree, the principle is exactly the same.

We live in a world of law and order (within this, you can try and change it). Or….you take up arms.

It really is that simple.

Unless you live in a land of no law and order or just choose to ignore it when and what law that you want to.

dowie · 27 Oct 2017 at 20:16

Raymond Lin said:
I disagree, the principle is exactly the same.

I didn't claim otherwise we can both agree that the principle is the same or at least similar, the reality is different though as Spain and China (and the rest of the international community) would give very different responses. So as much as it would be nice for the principle of self determination to be available to the HK people it is much less feasible in reality that they'd be able to attempt something like this.

We live in a world of law and order (within this, you can try and change it). Or….you take up arms.

It really is that simple.

Unless you live in a land of no law and order or just choose to ignore it when you want to.

This is just going in circles now - you're back to the rather mindless binary choices of obey the law or take up arms - I still don't follow, if you're giving 'take up arms' as a choice, an obviously illegal one, then why object to other options on the basis of illegality?

Raymond Lin · 27 Oct 2017 at 20:17

dowie said:
I didn't claim otherwise we can both agree that the principle is the same or at least similar, the reality is different though as Spain and China (and the rest of the international community) would give very different responses. So as much as it would be nice for the principle of self determination to apply to the HK people it is much less feasible in reality that they'd be able to attempt something like this.

This is just going in circles now - you're back to the rather mindless binary choices of obey the law or take up arms - I still don't follow, if you're giving 'take up arms' as a choice, an obviously illegal one, then why object to other options on the basis of illegality?

Its very simple.

Law - you follow it.

Period.

LabR@t · 27 Oct 2017 at 20:18

We shall now see the facists in the EU crush them.

dowie · 27 Oct 2017 at 20:18

Raymond Lin said:
Its very simple.

Law - you follow it.

Period.

So that is it, you're unable to expand on your position beyond simply repeating the legality claim and leaving it at that?

(I did ask you a fairly reasonable question about why you're proposing two extreme options and yet dismissing one that falls between them and instead you've come back with a mindless response... this is pointless - if it carries on like this then the thread will just get clogged up further and we'll get accused of derailment. If you want to actually engage in some discussion then I'm all ears)

Raymond Lin · 27 Oct 2017 at 20:19

dowie said:
So that is it, you're unable to expand on your position beyond simply repeating the legality claim and leaving it at that?

If you don't follow the law, what do you call it?

D.P. · 27 Oct 2017 at 20:29

LabR@t said:
We shall now see the facists in the EU crush them.

Why do certain posters keeping bringing the EU into this? that is a rhetorical question, we all know why certain people have such a perverse agenda.

The EU is keeping well out of this, it has nothing to do with them and the EU has no jurisdiction over the matter. Spain is free to leverage their sovereignty, something the knuckledraggers thought was so important during the Brexit mistake.

Zethor · 27 Oct 2017 at 20:35

D.P. said:
Why do certain posters keeping bringing the EU into this? that is a rhetorical question, we all know why certain people have such a perverse agenda.

The EU is keeping well out of this, it has nothing to do with them and the EU has no jurisdiction over the matter. Spain is free to leverage their sovereignty, something the knuckledraggers thought was so important during the Brexit mistake.

Just don't mention that Catalonia is liberal/left, pro-migration/taking in refugees and pro-EU. It might cause a few aneurysms.

Danny75 · 27 Oct 2017 at 20:36

Stretch said:
It's mass delusion on the part of the catalonian separatists. They may as well of proclaimed themselves unicorns.

Have you paid your tribute to Rome this month?

Uther · 27 Oct 2017 at 21:20

Surprised the Basques haven't just said a huge '**** you!' to Spain and joined in TBH.

Zethor · 27 Oct 2017 at 21:30

Uther said:
Surprised the Basques haven't just said a huge '**** you!' to Spain and joined in TBH.

The Basques wouldn't get involved in such a ridiculous, pointless endeavour. The only alternative to respecting the rule of the law is armed resistance so they fought, they lost and that was the end of it.

dowie · 27 Oct 2017 at 21:34

Yet it quite clearly isn't the only alternative...

Danny75 · 27 Oct 2017 at 21:57

Zethor said:
The only alternative to respecting the rule of the law is armed resistance so they fought, they lost and that was the end of it.

Would you like some Gandhi with that, sir?

sityeuropa · 27 Oct 2017 at 22:19

Whats the history of Catalan asking for a referendum?

Have they been asking for years and years for one? If so, it is more understandable.

Pudney · 27 Oct 2017 at 23:02

sityeuropa said:
Whats the history of Catalan asking for a referendum?

Have they been asking for years and years for one? If so, it is more understandable.

The history is very long on and off. The current situation I believe relates to the part rejection, part amendment and part acceptance of a Catalan law passed in 2006 that sought to clarify and codify the regions autonomy. The "interference" of the Spanish court led to the current wider calls for independence (probably as the Catalans felt their autonomy wasn't being respected, but that's just one side of the story).

jimjamuk · 27 Oct 2017 at 23:29

I agree with most on here - follow the law of the land but I guess at major points in time the law falls by the wayside as history creates a new country - countries come and go and I would suggest most are born or swallowed up through hostility not through law.

The Catalonians can basically declare what they want but it doesnt actually mean anything if the rest of Spain wants to do anything about it. Like Crimea if Ukraine/Nato or the UN did anything about it then Russia would have had a problem - but because no one did they took it and after a while people will forget it was part of Ukraine.

I'm sure the elements of ETA are still about and they are going to fight any crackdown by Madrid even if most of the population dont do anything about it

Pudney · 27 Oct 2017 at 23:35

jimjamuk said:
I'm sure the elements of ETA are still about and they are going to fight any crackdown by Madrid even if most of the population dont do anything about it

ETA were the Basque separatists.

LeMson · 28 Oct 2017 at 00:01

Fascinating developments, been at work so catching up on all this

Malt_Vinegar · 28 Oct 2017 at 00:31

It's raises an interesting point though. If a previous generations government agree to something, how far down the line is it "acceptable" for another generation to claim separation from that original decision?
I am deliberately not referencing the situation in Spain to make a hypothetical point.