Insane and lethal modern car designs.....:(

Orionaut

Orionaut

Orionaut

Soldato
Joined
2 Aug 2012
Posts
7,809
Well, Here's the thing.

A customer of mine experienced a sudden electric power steering failure.

Fortunately it happened in the owners driveway rather than on the road.

Power steering is nice but it shouldn't be essential. with older vehicles with hydraulic systems it is my anecdotal experience that they are still drivable if the system fails for any reason, just a bit heavy. (One also tends to get some warning if they are going to fail, screeching belts, noisy pumps etc)

But with this vehicle, (A VW Passat) the car is completely undrivable without the PAS!

I am no 98Lb weakling, I have various automotive fluids delivered in 200L drums which I roll to where I want them and then upend (200L antifreeze=220Kg+ :eek: ) .

But even I struggled really hard to turn the wheel on this vehicle, even after pumping the tyres up to max rated pressure (50PSI). If this fault had occurred while the owner (Or more to the point, his wife) was negotiating a corner or been going round a roundabout it would have happened with absolutely no warning and there is no doubt in my mind that they would have completely lost control of the car. It really is that bad!

How can it be legal to manufacture a vehicle with such a potentially catastrophic failure mode?

Surely systems as essential as brakes and steering should continue to function safely even if the electrical and/or servo assist systems fail.

When did it become acceptable to fail to ensure that critical systems have a reliable mechanical back up?

There is a reason why I prefer my 25 year old vehicles....

:confused: :confused: :confused:
 
Only ever had 1 car with EPAS and honestly it was no heavier than any other car without the assistance. I think you are being melodramatic.
 
Some of them, if the battery dies while your accelerating, you can't stop it. Once happened to a work colleague while driving a Lexus :D

But yea, I think a lot of it is cost cutting. Hydraulic steering is better but more expensive and requires more skill to service/repair by the engineer.
 
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Nasher said:
Some of them, if the battery dies while your accelerating, you can't stop it. Once happened to a work colleague while driving a Lexus :D

But yea, I think a lot of it is cost cutting. Hydraulic steering is better but more expensive and requires more skill to service/repair by the engineer.
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When you are moving it’s not really an issue.

EPAS was initially a CO2 tech, it’s also a feature offering technology and now as electrification and hybrids exist it’s essential.

I worked on F Type MY16 and EPAS was critical to getting the AWD system in as we could minimise the rack bar diameter under the front prop/diff.

Anything but cost saving.
 
Clarkey said:
Only ever had 1 car with EPAS and honestly it was no heavier than any other car without the assistance. I think you are being melodramatic.
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EPS has been around for some time, I have come across many EPS cars that are perfectly controllable if it wasn't working. However this Passat is not. It was unbelievably heavy.

The general criticism of EPAS is the possibility of sudden failure without any warning. The specific criticism is that this particular car was completely undrivable once the EPAS failed
 
If you stall the car coming out of a junction it's an issue as well, seen a few people do that and pretty much have no control until they get the engine back on :P
 
I think what the OP is saying is true, where is the redundancy in the system? Steering is critical to the control of the car, just like the brakes. If the ABS fails you can still brake and stop the car. Surely steering is just as important!
 
I've had similar with my wife's old Vectra. The PAS pump died on our driveway and I nor the recovery guy could even move the steering wheel to get the car off our driveway - it felt like we were going to snap the steering column we were putting in that much force. We ended up having to block the road for a couple of minutes so it could be driven straight on to the truck. Thankfully it's a quiet road so we didn't get in anyone's way.
 
Clarkey said:
Only ever had 1 car with EPAS and honestly it was no heavier than any other car without the assistance. I think you are being melodramatic.
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Drive my MX5 race car then another car with PAS. The difference is stark, make turning in small areas hard work, not impossible, but hard work.
 
Even with my gt86 (which is light by modern car standards), it's near impossible to turn the wheels while stopped without PAS on. Driving a big car in the old days was like going down the gym.
 
Are you sure something else didn't go wrong as well? I've moved an older Passat with the power steering out and while it took a lot of effort was easily doable for getting it off a trailer and into a drive.

Type_R said:
I think what the OP is saying is true, where is the redundancy in the system? Steering is critical to the control of the car, just like the brakes. If the ABS fails you can still brake and stop the car. Surely steering is just as important!
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It is easier when the car is moving albeit sudden failure while doing a turn at reasonable speed you might not have enough control to prevent a crash.
 
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Type_R said:
I think what the OP is saying is true, where is the redundancy in the system? Steering is critical to the control of the car, just like the brakes. If the ABS fails you can still brake and stop the car. Surely steering is just as important!
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That's an apples to oranges comparison. ABS is a system that complements the brakes. Steering is it's own system. To have a redundant steering system would be like saying cars should have 5 wheels in case one of the wheels falls off!
 
Rroff said:
It is easier when the car is moving albeit sudden failure while doing a turn at reasonable speed you might not have enough control to prevent a crash.
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I was thinking the same, first 2 cars I owned didn't have PAS. Even though they had skinny wheels by todays wide tyres on everything standards if you were literally stationary turning the wheel wasn't easy. As soon as you applied some forwards/backwards movement it was much easier to turn, not sure why but some friction dynamic changes I guess.
Throw in wider wheels, and a system thats not functioning but that you have to also turn I can see why it would be very hard to do.

However when rolling you would probably have a pretty decent chance to do it, if its a significant turn at speed probably less so, but if its a more minor adjustment such as tweaking your line in a lane on the motorway and it failed I am sure its still possible.
 
The Mrs Peugeot 308 broke down again a few days ago.It was only round the corner and the brother in law was also visiting so we decided to push it home with the Mrs steering. Steering the thing wasnt much of an issue, but stopping it was! :eek: foot on the floor, no breaks at all. Brother in law and i ended up hanging off the b pillars to slow it down. If that car was to break down whilst moving on a roundabout for example i think an accident is almost inevitable.
 
james.miller said:
The Mrs Peugeot 308 broke down again a few days ago.It was only round the corner and the brother in law was also visiting so we decided to push it home with the Mrs steering. Steering the thing wasnt much of an issue, but stopping it was! :eek: foot on the floor, no breaks at all. Brother in law and i ended up hanging off the b pillars to slow it down. If that car was to break down whilst moving on a roundabout for example i think an accident is almost inevitable.
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No handbrake?
 
Handbrake won't even help if it's an ebrake lol

I'm guessing it's fully electronic braking, not just assisted. Dumbest idea ever.
 
dont really see the issue, power steering is nice but non power steering is far from lethal.

try driving an old tractor with a loader, 1 flat tyre, no power steering and worn bushes will soon cure any illusions of car steering being a pain to work with
 
Nasher said:
Some of them, if the battery dies while your accelerating, you can't stop it. Once happened to a work colleague while driving a Lexus :D

But yea, I think a lot of it is cost cutting. Hydraulic steering is better but more expensive and requires more skill to service/repair by the engineer.
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You do post absolute rubbish don't you.

Nasher said:
Handbrake won't even help if it's an ebrake lol

I'm guessing it's fully electronic braking, not just assisted. Dumbest idea ever.
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And an electric handbrake is still the secondary braking system, as required by law. It can be activated and used to stop a vehicle when moving.
 
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