illegal immigrant, deported 5 times, shoots a woman dead... found not guilty

dowie · 3 Dec 2017 at 03:28

this seems like a pretty farcical case - while we weren't in the court room etc.. and so perhaps can't comment on the lack of a murder conviction how the prosecutor couldn't even get a manslaughter conviction here does seem to be pretty ridiculous given the facts - it almost certainly appears to be a case of manslaughter at least

so this guy Jose an illegal Mexican immigrant, has seven felony convictions and has been deported from the US 5 times so far - mostly drugs related but also for re-entry after deportation

after his latest re-entry (only 3 months after his 5th deportation) he was arrested again... a federal court recommended he be placed in a federal medical facility, the San Francisco Sheriff's department requested he be turned over to them for an outstanding drugs warrant

here is where the problem started, as San Fran is a "sanctuary city" they don't then inform the federal government when they release illegals (aside from in very specific circumstances) - so they ended up releasing this guy in March 2015 despite the fact he was supposed to be deported and ICE wanted to be informed of his release

fast forward a few months later to July 2015 - this guy gets high on sleeping pills and then shoots a woman dead on a pier in San Francisco using a firearm stolen from a federal vehicle 4 days earlier

he's charged with murder and illegal possession of narcotics

he gets found not guilty, the only charge he's found guilty of is being a felon in possession of a weapon

his excuse for the drugs - he "found" them in a trash can... (this is a guy with previous felony convictions for drugs offences)

his excuse for shooting - he "found" the firearm... then - well his statement about what happened next has three different conflicting accounts

he's claimed it went off when he unwrapped it - this was his defence in court

but he also told the police:
he stepped on it and it went off - this was a lie as they found residue on his right hand
he also then claimed he was shooting at seals

so he's clearly lied about the shooting and even without the lies then accidentally killing someone in a negligent manner like that is generally manslaughter anyway... yet bizarrely he got away with it

I mean he's not even been charged with illegal seal hunting!

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/30/us/kate-steinle-murder-trial.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/30/us/kate-steinle-murder-trial-verdict/index.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Kathryn_Steinle#Suspect

this whole thing has been jumped on by the right in the US, the jury decision itself seems bonkers and while I'm not really a fan of Trump I do think there is some validity in tackling sanctuary cities, it just seems unbelievable that a criminal with multiple convictions who it is known ICE want to deport is instead just set free by local law enforcement.

The apparent excuse for this is that they feel it would alienate local immigrant communities if they started handing over illegals who had been arrested for other criminal offices - I'd suspect though that there are bigger issues causing alienation between US police and various communities - namely the more authoritarian attitude they often take and the relative lack of accountability of police officers for their actions. The UK after all doesn't have this separation between local and federal law and likely has better relationships between local communities than in the US.

d_brennen · 3 Dec 2017 at 03:39

Having skimmed the first link, and not being bothered too much by American legal proceedings, it seems "justice" was done. The guy got caught and was tried... What's your opinion? I mean your own opinion, from the facts you know, not what the orange balloon animal has tawatted?

Yes the man was an illegal in the USA, but can you without reasonable doubt say he mentioned to kill the woman? My guess is no, which is what the jury said too.

/thread

dowie · 3 Dec 2017 at 03:43

d_brennen said:
Having skimmed the first link, and not being bothered too much by American legal proceedings, it seems "justice" was done. The guy got caught and was tried... What's your opinion? I mean your own opinion, from the facts you know, not what the orange balloon animal has tawatted?

I've already posted my opinion:

dowie said:
while we weren't in the court room etc.. and so perhaps can't comment on the lack of a murder conviction how the prosecutor couldn't even get a manslaughter conviction here does seem to be pretty ridiculous given the facts - it almost certainly appears to be a case of manslaughter at least
[...]
so he's clearly lied about the shooting and even without the lies then accidentally killing someone in a negligent manner like that is generally manslaughter anyway... yet bizarrely he got away with it

I mean he's not even been charged with illegal seal hunting!

d_brennen said:
Yes the man was an illegal in the USA, but can you without reasonable doubt say he mentioned to kill the woman? My guess is no, which is what the jury said too.

/thread

I think this is a misunderstanding on your part - if we knew for sure he intended to kill the woman then it is murder, I'm not sure about the murder charge... it does seem quite possible, you don't just randomly fire at a crowd of people but there is some doubt there. The manslaughter charge on the other hand doesn't require that same intent.

the idea that "justice" was done here is farcical the prosecutor really screwed up this case is the more likely conclusion here

Kutter · 3 Dec 2017 at 04:57

So the family of the woman should sue the city of san fran for letting the guy go in the first place.

Sankari · 3 Dec 2017 at 06:43

He didn't aim the gun at her, he had no intention of hitting her, the bullet ricocheted off a concrete pathway and hit her. So there's no basis for a murder charge here.

He has been convicted of illegal possession, in addition to his illegal visa status. I think he should have been convicted of reckless endangerment and drug possession as well.

I don't see how anything else can stick.

Uther · 3 Dec 2017 at 08:06

The whole idea of 'sanctuary cities' is farcical. And I'm no fan of Trump.

Dis86 · 3 Dec 2017 at 08:21

Seems like another innocent life lost because of liberal handwringing to me.

Vonhelmet · 3 Dec 2017 at 08:43

Seems like conflating a death with immigration status to me. His immigration status wasn’t the subject of a trial, his shooting of someone was. It’s poisoning the well to put the two of them together like that.

None of which is to say that he should have been in the country when he’d been deported, or to say that the murder charge result isn’t a bit weird...

Hotwired · 3 Dec 2017 at 09:11

Yeah I'm not a big fan of this sticking multiple factors into one argument and then saying you're unhappy about the outcome of the trial which wasn't even about them.

A man was found not guilty of murder or manslaughter after they killed someone. This isn't the first or last time such a thing has happened and what you think of the man has no bearing on the case.

Housey · 3 Dec 2017 at 09:48

Richocet him to death

VoG · 3 Dec 2017 at 10:02

dowie said:
if we knew for sure he intended to kill the woman then it is murder, I'm not sure about the murder charge... it does seem quite possible, you don't just randomly fire at a crowd of people but there is some doubt there. The manslaughter charge on the other hand doesn't require that same intent.

He would have to be some kind of serious bloody assassin to intentionally hit & kill some one with a ricochet, the manslaughter charge on the other hand does seem rather odd but that being said this is Merica after all, & people can & do get accidentally shot to death all the time over there, & the worst the trigger puller faces is a slapped wrist for negligently discharging a fire arm, so go figure.

Greebo · 3 Dec 2017 at 10:18

Guns innit.

dowie · 3 Dec 2017 at 11:48

VoG said:
He would have to be some kind of serious bloody assassin to intentionally hit & kill some one with a ricochet, the manslaughter charge on the other hand does seem rather odd but that being said this is Merica after all, & people can & do get accidentally shot to death all the time over there, & the worst the trigger puller faces is a slapped wrist for negligently discharging a fire arm, so go figure.

nah hunters can get charged with manslaughter after accidentally shooting someone thinking they were aiming for a deer... and that is when using their legally owned firearm and hunting permit etc..

not high on sleeping pills they don't have a prescription for and just "found" and then with a stolen gun they also rather implausibly "found" and then with three different accounts of how the gun went off... including supposedly shooting at seals

as for the ricochet, that is indeed the thing that puts some reasonable doubt in re: the murder charge - however it is perfectly plausible to shoot at a group or at someone else and miss then result in that happening... in fact shooting in the direction of the people on the pier, deliberately knowing it could kill someone could be sufficient too

the story/defence is just so implausible though... but I guess with a good defence lawyer to paint the very dubious narrative in a way that bring doubt to the jury's minds and a shoddy prosecutor can result in a seemingly silly verdict like this

he must surely face federal charges now though, no chance they're just going to let him get away with serving 3 years for this and the feds not getting hold of him upon release - sanctuary city or not they'll be aiming to grab him whether the local authorities inform the feds of his release or not this time

dowie · 3 Dec 2017 at 11:52

Vonhelmet said:
Seems like conflating a death with immigration status to me. His immigration status wasn’t the subject of a trial, his shooting of someone was. It’s poisoning the well to put the two of them together like that.

None of which is to say that he should have been in the country when he’d been deported, or to say that the murder charge result isn’t a bit weird...

but this isn't the trial - his background is relevant for discussion of the wider issues, also the fact he's a convicted felon is the only reason he got found guilty of at least something regarding this - if it wasn't for his previous felonies he could have walked from this thing

his illegal status is the reason the feds will likely pursue charges against him too, the sanctuary city issue is relevant as he shouldn't have been there to begin with

Hotwired said:
Yeah I'm not a big fan of this sticking multiple factors into one argument and then saying you're unhappy about the outcome of the trial which wasn't even about them.

who said I was making one argument - am I not allowed to criticise both sanctuary cities and the outcome of the case? Both are pretty farcical tbh...

Craterloads · 3 Dec 2017 at 12:03

The wall just got 10ft higher!

Hotwired · 3 Dec 2017 at 12:26

dowie said:
who said I was making one argument - am I not allowed to criticise both sanctuary cities and the outcome of the case? Both are pretty farcical tbh...

The title of this thread combos all things into a bargain bucket. You condensed it right there and added the not guilty verdict as if its another negative on the list.

Could be a headline of a cheap paper. All his attempts to live in the USA have no bearing on how guilty he was of the charges.

How guilty he was of the charges is down to law and evidence. The decision of the jury was that the case of guilt wasn't good enough. This doesn't mean he didn't kill her but it means he wasn't proven guilty of the charges which requires specific proofs. So it has essentially been filed under **** happens.

That aside the resistance of different parts of America to work together in favour of independence (hah) is always going to cause a farce. The united part of America doesn't apply to all things.

dowie · 3 Dec 2017 at 12:58

Hotwired said:
The title of this thread combos all things into a bargain bucket. You condensed it right there and added the not guilty verdict as if its another negative on the list.

the not guilty verdict is another negative on the list

Could be a headline of a cheap paper. All his attempts to live in the USA have no bearing on how guilty he was of the charges.

I never claimed they did

How guilty he was of the charges is down to law and evidence. The decision of the jury was that the case of guilt wasn't good enough. This doesn't mean he didn't kill her but it means he wasn't proven guilty of the charges which requires specific proofs. So it has essentially been filed under **** happens.

That aside the resistance of different parts of America to work together in favour of independence (hah) is always going to cause a farce. The united part of America doesn't apply to all things.

I'm not really sure what you're referring to re: "filed under **** happens" or "resistance of different parts of America to work together in favour of independence" - this seems a bit waffly

Hotwired · 3 Dec 2017 at 13:26

It's only "waffly" if you want to be obtuse and I can't help that.

Raymond Lin · 3 Dec 2017 at 14:39

The fact that he went through the whole trial by his “peers”, in this instance, more like the opposite and yet found not guilty is all that I need to know.

The only people who were presented proper arguments by both sides were the jury and they acquitted him so as much as we sitting on our armchairs can have an opinion, it really is just a biased one, and one lacking all the facts and one that is ultimately irrelevant.

Dis86 · 3 Dec 2017 at 15:04

Raymond Lin said:
The fact that he went through the whole trial by his “peers”, in this instance, more like the opposite and yet found not guilty is all that I need to know.

The only people who were presented proper arguments by both sides were the jury and they acquitted him so as much as we sitting on our armchairs can have an opinion, it really is just a biased one, and one lacking all the facts and one that is ultimately irrelevant.

So I guess you think OJ was innocent ey?

and this guy guilty http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...rned-nurse-kidnapping-louisiana-a8055546.html

Juries make dumb decisions sometimes.