Don
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Arizona cop found not guilty of murdering unarmed man
- Thread starter dowie
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" included the words "YOU'RE ******" engraved into his rifle dust cover"
hmm, he was 5'8" too apparently... can imagine the sort of person he was - finally gets to exert some authority over people when he puts on his uniform... yet when confronted with a situation with an armed suspect he's super nervous/twitchy
hmm, he was 5'8" too apparently... can imagine the sort of person he was - finally gets to exert some authority over people when he puts on his uniform... yet when confronted with a situation with an armed suspect he's super nervous/twitchy
A bit of a weak reason
Again, I can only comment from what I've seen in the body cam - so forgive me if there's footage showing the officers confirming that the apartment is completely empty, prior to the shooting; but surely the threat of a person or persons trying to take your life, is enough of a reason to not go walking towards a doorway, which may or may not have other armed occupants just waiting nearby? I've never had a gun pointed at me, but I'm pretty sure I'd **** myself if I did, I certainly wouldn't go wandering towards it.I'll have a mooch at whatever else has been released about this, as I am genuinely interested - but on the face value of the body cam footage, I don't agree that it was murder. The guy reached for his waistband/behind his back several times; a split second decision was made, and it was the wrong one. But I'm sure that most of us here have never been faced with the possibility of someone taking our life in the next few seconds, which is what these officers may have felt.
As a side note, the copper does look like a nut job, and if his dust cover sticker is for real - he's also a but of a gun nut too; and maybe doesn't possess the sort of mindset required for that work.
You appear to be saying this without any irony whatsoever.
I didn't mean it in an ironic way - I'm just saying (badly I expect) that for the officers to have walked towards the victim, thus exposing themselves to the doorway, whilst [maybe] not knowing if there were other armed suspects waiting in the wings; seems a daft thing to suggest.
A bit of a weak reason
It isn't a hostage situation, no one has threatened to kill them, they've asked the woman to come out then the man to come out... they complied. There isn't much reason to suspect there is an imminent "threat" from anyone and the room's occupant has emerged clearly not carrying a rifle.
That's exactly my point. You say the officer shouldn't have to approach someone who may have a gun, whereas the suspect should approach someone who most definitely does have a gun.
BUT WHAT IF HE HAD A SCOTTISH FIGHTING CABER UP HIS BUM????
Anyway. Clearly everyone thinks that cop killers all did the job by hustling the cops into a full sense of security by crying like a little girl before pulling their weapons out...
Again, I can only quote from what I have seen - I'll go have a watch of other footage. But surely it isn't that cut and shut? The officers were potentially dealing with an unknown number of armed suspects - so if one guy and one woman come out and promise there's no one else; should they take that as the truth? Again from the video I have seen (all 1:17 of it), the officers seem to be exercising caution - maybe because they do not trust the words of potentially armed suspects...
Whether it was a hostage situation, or threats were made, are immaterial from what I have seen - they were dealing with someone they had reports of begin armed, someone who kept making movements (regardless of the reasons why) towards their waistband. If that person did have a gun, they might be able to grab it and fire off a shot in a second or two - that shout could injure or kill you/your colleague/a bystander. Sure he didn't come out with a rifle, but how are they to know he's not carrying anything else? If there's a video that shows him lifting his shirt and doing a 360 (like the movies) then that will certainly change the situation for me - as it'll be hard to justify being possibly armed.
Of course the suspect should - they are the Police! I know a lot of people have a big thing these days about not respecting the Police, but the majority of law abiding population, will indeed follow the instructions from someone in authority!
Oh, OK, so it's nothing more than an appeal to authority. And hey, this guy certainly showed why you should respect the police, right? After all, he was such a good police officer that he was sacked. Awesome.
Don
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Watch the 2 full videos before you comment further. It shows a whole lot more. I watched it from both cameras. It is very uncomfortable viewing even knowing the outcome.
The chap was terrified, was being antagonised, and hyped up by the officer's terrible commands and threats. It was plain to see his approach with the suspect male was totally different to the suspect female.
He was begging for him to screw up so he could shoot him.
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If you don't respect the Police and their authority, then that's your own failing. The shooter here is not indicative of all officers, in any country, so banding them all together as the bad guys is a bit daft imo.
Nah this gets worse with the second viewing and just watched the second video in the link from other officers' view which makes it even more reprehensible. In fact had I watched the second video first I may have thought he possibly could have had a reason to shoot but it makes his "reasons" worse.
From original video I seen elsewhere I thought there were only two policemen present hence why he was so aggressive in his manner but article states there were six responding. I can make out at least three people who have their rifles trained on the suspect, yet unless I'm missing something he appears to be the only one who felt 'threatened' enough to fire. I know he's the closest to the suspect but at least one other officer appears to have a clear line of fire.
There was sufficient backup for the reported threat ("hey we're in an open carry state, where everyone grows up arounds guns, I can see someone with a gun") and he did little to de-escalate the stressful situation which frankly he created as everyone appeared compliant in the video. There was a literally crying man who appeared confused and scared who just watched the woman in front of him also crawl on hands and knees. Officer was unclear and ambiguous with commands and neither recognised it nor made no effort to make it communicate clearly.
From original video I seen elsewhere I thought there were only two policemen present hence why he was so aggressive in his manner but article states there were six responding. I can make out at least three people who have their rifles trained on the suspect, yet unless I'm missing something he appears to be the only one who felt 'threatened' enough to fire. I know he's the closest to the suspect but at least one other officer appears to have a clear line of fire.
There was sufficient backup for the reported threat ("hey we're in an open carry state, where everyone grows up arounds guns, I can see someone with a gun") and he did little to de-escalate the stressful situation which frankly he created as everyone appeared compliant in the video. There was a literally crying man who appeared confused and scared who just watched the woman in front of him also crawl on hands and knees. Officer was unclear and ambiguous with commands and neither recognised it nor made no effort to make it communicate clearly.
We're getting sidetracked a bit, but lets go with it. I'm not sure at what point he disrespected the police, to be honest, unless you think that not following their arbitrary and changing instructions constitutes disrespect.
In any case, disrespecting the police does not warrant a death sentence.
As I alluded to earlier in the thread, he's not Judge Dredd, so God knows what he thinks he's doing.
Don
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Wait, what??
When the officer is cleared of any crime by the existing legal system in said country, it certainly is clear that this is seen as perfectly acceptable behavior..
Also, watch the full video! He was in NO WAY disrespectful at any point!
I wasn't aware that in GD, you can't offer input until you're fully versed in the topic - pretty sure there are posts were people will comment and then come back and expand. But I have done as you requested sir; I have just watched the ~20 minute clip in the OP, up to the point that the other officer is taking the woman away to the squad car - what I noticed in it:
At around 2:18 someone says "more than one person", shortly followed up by talk of a female - my immediate thoughts to those two points are it can be taken two ways [IMO of course]; one that there is more than one person and the female, or that the more than one person includes the female If the latter, then would they not just say "male and female", or does this indicate that they had uncertainty about the number of occupants within the room.
There's over 3 minutes where one of the officers are shouting "occupants of room 502..." and get no response, this is followed by one of the officers being told to get a keycard. Who knows what might be going on in the room - are they simply not hearing the order, are they loading weapons, are they getting ready to shoot...
Around 6:38 one of the officers mentions "hearing two voices" - could very well be the male and female, but there's nothing more said about this.
Around 9:50 both the victim and woman are out of the room and both are heard saying there is no one else in the room - I have already mentioned what I thought about this, and the fact that all three officers keep their weapons up and positions safe; seem to show that they are still guarded on this fact. Shortly after this, the shooter makes some remark about the fact both the victim and female have shown an inability to follow instructions - I presume that this is in regards to not answering the "room 502" shouts; as the view isn't clear; so I couldn't see if both the victim and woman had got down with crossed legs and arms up before this comment. The shooter makes his first threat about shooting them, and it not ending well.
Both the victim and woman confirm to the officers they are not drunk - but they sound either drunk or stoned; in fact, the woman doesn't even seem to react to the victim being shot. I guess that fear could account for all of this though.
One thing I did notice, was the split second before the shots are fired, the two other officers you can see, both react to the victim's movement - so it seems that even they suspected he was armed, and could have been drawing a gun.
I fully agree that the victim was terrified, I think we all would be if in his place. The shooter was treating both suspects like children, if his "you're ******" sticker is real, then you can start to build up a picture of him as being itching for a reason to kill them both; certainly after having his commands seemingly ignored, prior to them coming out into the hallway.
I didn't see a difference in how the female was dealt with, as opposed to the male though - but we're all processing this horrible video in our own ways. If anything, the woman seemed to follow the shooter's barks to the letter - though the second video doesn't show her fully all the way through the ordeal.
As for begging for him to screw up - I don't know the answer to that, again [if real] that sticker on this rifle shows he's not the full ticket; it's almost like he's treating it like a R6 Siege or CoD unlock-able skin for goodness sake. If there's any information on his that shows an unstable past, then he's certainly heading towards to category of nut job, and not really the sort of person you'd want enforcing law an order, with an automatic weapon.
Ok, I admitted I probably wasn't being clear in my messages, but let me just clarify this point a little more:
I meant this as a reference in general terms, not about the victim specifically - I was simply trying to highlight that for me personally, walking towards potential death, is not something I would do.
I guess this is a contradiction to my last point, as I have now drawn the dicussion back to the shooter and victim - but I was only trying to highlight why I didn't agree that not walkign towards the victim was a weak reason.
In the confines of that hallway, with the possibility that there may have been other suspects (apart from the victim and woman), yes, the victim should have to approach the officers. In general terms, instructions from the Police and people in authority, should be obeyed.
I may not have been clear, for which I apologise for again, but I don't think that I have said the victim was disrespecting the Police; I said the victim should have had to approach the Police, rather than the Police approach him - following on from my suggestion that there may have been others in the room. If anything he failed to follow some of the instructions given - but as I alluded to, having a gun pointed at you, will send the majority of us into a spin; he may have even been under the influence of something.
I couldn't agree more with that sentiment. In fact, I did see this video a while ago, and my immediate thoughts were - murder! But, having watching the clip in the OP, and noticing the last movement to his waist; I tired to at least sit back and give it another think.
If anything else comes from this tragic event, let's hope it's an increased level of training, re-training and monitoring.
Hopefully I've clarified that I didn't say he had been disrespectful to the shooter, I'm pretty sure I didn't.... but quote me if I'm wrong; and if so, I certainly didn't mean to say the victim was disrespectful. With regards to respect for the law/authority, I had actually meant in general terms, not that the victim wasn't being disrespectful.
The shooter is the one showing a lack of respect from the contents of the second video - as commentators have said, it's a bit like Simon says'; only getting it wrong = death, which he points out several times. If not already on edge and prone to making mistakes, by having guns trained on you, then being reminded that a wrong move will end your life; will certainly push the victim into the likelihood of making a mistake. But again, I can't imagine what it is like for the officers - not knowing if he was armed or if that final move was for a gun.
Sorry, I didn't spot this ninja edit earlier.
I don't think everyone thinks that - at least, I know I don't, and I'm reluctant to trawl through the proceeding posts to fact check that statement, as I suspect it was an attempt at humor.