GD is going to love this one - Rape case collapse

[drunkenmaster]

I just dont think you have any understanding of the complexities of disclosure under cpia
...

A targetted, brief look at an evidential or intelligence report from a digital device might be appropriate for the purposes of establishing quicktime lines of enquiry in a live investigation....

Its absolutely not sufficient for the purposes of disclosure when a case is in the court system....


Your assertion that you could just have a quick review of a report containing tens of thousands of lines of information for the purposes of satisfying police roles under cpia is pure fantasy

You're simply completely wrong and Dowie is absolutely right. Firstly the 40k messages was everything, snapchat, texts, emails, everything. So trying to inflate the number higher by saying there could be lots more is misleading. Secondly the very first they should do BEFORE this gets towards a court case, before it needs disclosing, is investigating the truth of the allegation. That is paramount, disclosure doesn't come in to this. If someone is accusing someone else of rape and you gather evidence anyone with half a brain would immediately and first check the relevant dates, the days before during and after each alleged attack, this could take a few hours and would have immediately shown all the texts of her asking the accused for sex after alleged rapes and shown her bragging about the sex to friends. That alone could be found via the investigation and used to prevent the accused being wrongly charged, forced to obtain bail, risk being held in jail (as the other accused victim was) and having their lives massively damaged as the allegations get made public.

This has nothing to do with disclosure, like I said any cop with half a brain should immediately review that information long before any trial. In this day and age texts, snapchat, e-mail, phone call logs should be pretty much the first stop when investigating a crime. Here doing that they would have proved him innocent in literally a matter of hours and also in fact prevented likely hundreds of hours by police and the CPS from being put into this clearly fake accusation leaving more time for investigating other crimes.

However disclosure is irrelevant here again, because even if these were checked at a later date, it still makes far more sense to begin checking the data around the alleged attacks, and still that would have shown him to be innocent in a matter of hours and still before disclosure that could be immediately taken to the CPS who could have told the defence that they are dropping the case... at which point what happens, disclosure becomes irrelevant.

The important information was right there, easy to find and could have been used to prevent a hell of a lot of hours being wasted on this case and instead that information was sat on for whatever reason.

 

[Caracus2k]

You're simply completely wrong and Dowie is absolutely right. Firstly the 40k messages was everything, snapchat, texts, emails, everything. So trying to inflate the number higher by saying there could be lots more is misleading. Secondly the very first they should do BEFORE this gets towards a court case, before it needs disclosing, is investigating the truth of the allegation. That is paramount, disclosure doesn't come in to this. If someone is accusing someone else of rape and you gather evidence anyone with half a brain would immediately and first check the relevant dates, the days before during and after each alleged attack, this could take a few hours and would have immediately shown all the texts of her asking the accused for sex after alleged rapes and shown her bragging about the sex to friends. That alone could be found via the investigation and used to prevent the accused being wrongly charged, forced to obtain bail, risk being held in jail (as the other accused victim was) and having their lives massively damaged as the allegations get made public.

This has nothing to do with disclosure, like I said any cop with half a brain should immediately review that information long before any trial. In this day and age texts, snapchat, e-mail, phone call logs should be pretty much the first stop when investigating a crime. Here doing that they would have proved him innocent in literally a matter of hours and also in fact prevented likely hundreds of hours by police and the CPS from being put into this clearly fake accusation leaving more time for investigating other crimes.

However disclosure is irrelevant here again, because even if these were checked at a later date, it still makes far more sense to begin checking the data around the alleged attacks, and still that would have shown him to be innocent in a matter of hours and still before disclosure that could be immediately taken to the CPS who could have told the defence that they are dropping the case... at which point what happens, disclosure becomes irrelevant.

The important information was right there, easy to find and could have been used to prevent a hell of a lot of hours being wasted on this case and instead that information was sat on for whatever reason.

Another person who was either prepared or at least viewed an evidential phone download I assume?

I'm not arguing with you or the other poster on the majority of issues raised....

I'm just pointing out, from personal experience, that reviewing everything that may be relevant to a criminal case from a mobile phone download these days, where the download frequently consists of 10's of gigabyte's is not a quick job...

Its not just a case of looking at the texts and any other data from messaging apps... Internet logs, photos, videos and their associated meta data have to be reviewed and careful notes of the review have to be taken constantly during the process ....

Unless you have personally prepared or reviewed evidential phone downloads you are arguing from a position of if ignorance on this matter.

I have personally prepared and reviewed evidential phone downloads using cry mobile forensic tools in a role as a forensic examiner for criminal investigations.... The dowload process alone for a physical and logical download of a phone (I. E without any review) can take in excess of 8 hours if you are dealing with a modern android or apple phone....

The date is not presented in the reports in the same manner as an end user on a phone sees it and the software is not particularly user friendly due to having to cope with thousands of different phones with hundreds of new phone coming out annually.

Police officer receive very little/ no instruction on the use of the software and interpretation of data included which with modern phones often incudes geo locating data/ meta data....

In the case in hand anyway my understanding is that the officer in charge (officer in the case) was fully aware of the data protection on the phone but (mistakenly) thought that he could not/ should not have disclosed its existence to the Crown Prosecution Service.

It is correct y to say that the Crown Prosecution Service would expect all relevant unused material to be both obtained and reviewed by police with the datails scheduled for the Crown Prosecution Service to either directly review themselves or to review from the schedules.

 

[dowie]

The dowload process alone for a physical and logical download of a phone (I. E without any review) can take in excess of 8 hours if you are dealing with a modern android or apple phone....

How are things like that relevant? I realise I don't have the experience here but I'm going to assume that the police officer doesn't sit and stare at the device for 8 hours when the data is being downloaded but rather they go and do other things....

You were putting lots of emphasis on there being 40k messages, the rather simple point that doesn't really need experience of using your evidential download machine or whatever you want to cite in order to create some argument from authority is just that the relevant messages around the relevant dates will be far fewer than that and therefore take rather less time to review and exonerate this man thus putting emphasis on the 40k messages is a bit of a red herring... just as the new bit of information re: the download taking 8 hours is.

 

[Caracus2k]

How are things like that relevant? I realise I don't have the experience here but I'm going to assume that the police officer doesn't sit and stare at the device for 8 hours when the data is being downloaded but rather they go and do other things....

Again you are arguing from a position of ignorance.... It's not a plug and play and then leave process...

Due to the plethora of modern smartphones and the almost infinite amount of variations of devices and applications on the phone the software requires frequently user intervention and its not as simply as setting it up and coming back hours later to a completed dowload.


The forensic worker has many other thinks to do which includes digital photography of the device, SIM card and any memory card and careful contemporary notes made throughout the process....

And please point to your source that puts the messages 'within a few days' of the offences

 

[dowie]

Again you are arguing from a position of ignorance.... It's not a plug and play and then leave process...

Due to the plethora of modern smartphones and the almost infinite amount of variations of devices and applications on the phone the software requires frequently user intervention and its not as simply as setting it up and. Owning back hours later to a completed dowload.


The forensic worker has many other thinks to do which includes digital photography of the device, SIM card and any memory card and careful contemporary notes made throughout the process....

I doubt they are sat there interacting with the device for 8 hours solid

it doesn't matter that I'm arguing from a position of ignorance, the point I was making re: the 40k messages still stands regardless

 

[Caracus2k]

I doubt they are sat there interacting with the device for 8 hours solid

it doesn't matter that I'm arguing from a position of ignorance, the point I was making re: the 40k messages still stands regardless

There may be periods where the operator can move away from the machine /kiosk and compete another task but the fact remains that the operator frequently needs to interact with the download kiosk/ hardware and has to make contemporaneous notes throughout the process.


As stated I have actually undertaken this process. You, by your own admission, have not.

Do you argue with other tradepeople and professionals about their work without knowing what the relevant processes actually involve?

You have also (repeatedly) been told by me that there is far more than simple text or messenger app records to review on a modern smartphone dowload....

I assume your are also an expert on identifying and interpreting geo locating data from media meta data for example?

 

[dowie]

There may be periods where the operator can move away from the machine /kiosk and compete another task but the fact remains that the operator frequently needs to interact with the download kiosk/ hardware and has to make contemporaneous notes throughout the process.


As stated I have actually undertaken this process. You, by your own admission, have not.

Do you argue with other tradepeople and professionals about their work without knowing what the relevant processes actually involve?

I'll have to take your word for it that someone downloading a phone is pretty much stuck by a machine for 8 hours though I'm rather skeptical of that claim given your attempts to rubbish the rather simple point re: the 40k texts being a bit of a red herring. My point still stands re: the texts and trying to object to it using some form of argument from authority is rather poor.

 

[Caracus2k]

I'll have to take your word for it that someone downloading a phone is pretty much stuck by a machine for 8 hours though I'm rather skeptical of that claim given your attempts to rubbish the rather simple point re: the 40k texts being a bit of a red herring. My point still stands re: the texts and trying to object to it using some form of argument from authority is rather poor.

Again there's a lot more than texts and instant messaging to review.

Let's say I'll offer an olive branch of sorts and I'll accept that upon reviewing more widely the reporting that the messages quoted certainly make this look like an impossible case to expect a realistic prospect of conviction.

No withstanding that context (rarely provided in the press) is key.....

You would be surprised for example how many times sexual assault complainiants state in messages to friends and relatives that they have not been sexually assaulted /raped due to the often complex nature of these offences.....

A person confronted by a third party about a mention that they have been sexually assaulted /raped by a relative or mutual associate / friend will often opt to deny what has actuallt happened then state the truth

 

[dowie]

[QUOTE="Caracus2k, post: 31452247, member: 77465"
Let's say I'll offer an olive branch of sorts and I'll accept that upon reviewing more widely the reporting that the messages quoted certainly make this look like an impossible case to expect a realistic prospect of conviction.[/QUOTE]

"realistic prospect of conviction"

it is pretty clear that a rape didn't take place, I'm glad you've actually read up a bit more on the case now though rather that basing everything on the BBC article and an assumption that the texts refer to those sent before the incidents

 

[drunkenmaster]

Again you are arguing from a position of ignorance.... It's not a plug and play and then leave process...

Due to the plethora of modern smartphones and the almost infinite amount of variations of devices and applications on the phone the software requires frequently user intervention and its not as simply as setting it up and coming back hours later to a completed dowload.


The forensic worker has many other thinks to do which includes digital photography of the device, SIM card and any memory card and careful contemporary notes made throughout the process....

And please point to your source that puts the messages 'within a few days' of the offences

You have to take 2 photo's of the device... omg, will the work ever stop? Also you said, the date isn't shown in the same way... but you didn't say it isn't shown right? So you're implying it's harder, but really it isn't. Filtering data by date, time and things is essential in most applications that handle data so the idea that forensic software wouldn't be capable of doing this is absurd. All your posts seem to be pushing the idea that this is insanely complex work by trying to make incredibly easy tasks sound much more difficult than they are.

AS for knowing roughly when the dates would be, first of all you have the accused, his phones and during interviews what he thinks is evidence to his innocence. So when he says in an interview that she accuses him of rape on, for example, the 15th of May, he can say I remember that, she texted me the next morning asking if we could get together that evening for another round. That gives you the dates, but it's such ridiculously simple and basic information.

You look for data around the dates of the supposed rapes, that isn't rocket science, you don't need to be cop or a forensic investigator to know that, it's basic common sense a 12yr old would be able to think up all on his own.

As for the downloading and meticulous recording, that data doesn't disappear when you look though the texts quickly, and the meta data isn't as important as the content, finding relevant data then digging into the meta data to confirm it hasn't been modified is the path you take, you don't confirm the meta data of every single one of 40k texts, snap chat messages and everything else then start reviewing them from the first message forward, that's insane, inefficient and pointless. Anyone who wouldn't check the messages around the specified attacks first is just incompetent at their job. Also they have the phone right.... so they can actually just read those texts on the phone really quickly can't they?

Then there is the rest, ever heard of multitasking, who in their life hasn't transferred data or had to do things that involve various questions or responses at various points, you can't work on another case in the meantime, sorry but this is all coming across as trying to inflate how difficult the process is. You have to click things at various points in a download, wow, I've never heard of anything so complex. If the police aren't training people well enough, that is still the fault of the police, if the guy in the job is incompetent, that is the fault of the police, if teaching people efficiency in investigation isn't done, that is still the fault of the police.

 

[Caracus2k]

"realistic prospect of conviction"

it is pretty clear that a rape didn't take place, I'm glad you've actually read up a bit more on the case now though rather that basing everything on the BBC article and an assumption that the texts refer to those sent before the incidents

I would need to see the context and other case material including the complaints account to comment further. These cases are rarely as straight forward as the general public imagines.

 

[drunkenmaster]

You would be surprised for example how many times sexual assault complainiants state in messages to friends and relatives that they have not been sexually assaulted /raped due to the often complex nature of these offences.....

A person confronted by a third party about a mention that they have been sexually assaulted /raped by a relative or mutual associate / friend will often opt to deny what has actuallt happened then state the truth

No, I wouldn't be surprised, I literally brought that up earlier in the thread. Texts bragging to friends isn't proof on it's own, because people might not want to admit the truth, I brought that up in my first post on this because that is obvious.

But a combination of bragging to friends while also texting violent sex fantasies to the accused and ALSO texting him about meeting up on multiple occasions to have more sex after incidents she claimed were rape is together actually incredibly compelling proof that she was in fact lying. Rape victims often try to hide that they were raped, though most of those people don't actually go to the police about being raped, but rape victims who after being raped keep asking the supposed rapist to have sex and keep bragging to friends about the sex while also sending rape fantasies..... simply put, no.

In your above reply posted while I was typing, you again take the route of suggesting things other people wouldn't think of, except everything you've mentioned is both obvious and had been brought up by members of the 'general public'. Your entire style of posting is that of one where you believe you have special insight that others can't think of and that way way overstating how difficult it is to download data from a phone. Just because it' isn't a single button that downloads everything automatically doesn't make it complex and really difficult.

 

[Caracus2k]

Your entire style of posting is that of one where you believe you have special insight that others can't think of and that way way overstating how difficult it is to download data from a phone. Just because it' isn't a single button that downloads everything automatically doesn't make it complex and really difficult.

Problem for you is that I do have a specialist insight which I have already alluded to.... Please remind me of your specialist knowledge on the subject?

Trying to cite an argument from authority fallacy isn't particularly useful to you or anyone else in this case as I am not using a third party...

For example if I was to provide evidence in a court of law for the prosecution or the defence in a case and the other side wished to challenge that evidence would they employ an someone with accredited knowledge on the subject or some random person with a personal point of view from an Internet forum?

 

[dowie]

point is re: the argument about the texts your authority/experience doesn't add much other than maybe trying to add some emphasis on the police lacking training, seemingly unable to multitask or the technology they use being a bit naff/slow etc..

the fact still remains that the majority of those 40k texts probably weren't relevant to the time period/dates in question - I don't need to know anything about the phone downloading machine or disclosure to mention that

 

[drunkenmaster]

Problem for you is that I do have a specialist insight which I have already alluded to.... Please remind me of your specialist knowledge on the subject?

Trying to cite an argument from authority fallacy isn't particularly useful to you or anyone else in this case as I am not using a third party...

For example if I was to provide evidence in a court of law for the prosecution or the defence in a case and the other side wished to challenge that evidence would they employ an someone with accredited knowledge on the subject or some random person with a personal point of view from an Internet forum?

Well lets ignore that anyone can claim to have specialist knowledge, and lets ignore that a huge huge portion of people who believe because they do a job that no one not doing the job can have a single clue about their jobs, you kept making incredibly basic claims while trying to point to your authority.

The nature of the way you described your work was an attempt to make it seem more difficult, a transfer can take 8 hours, it can be gigabytes and sometimes you have to press some buttons during that 8 hours. Yeah, it's called running software. As someone who has studied degress in maths, computing, computer science and knew several people who went into forensic accounting type areas, most of their job is little more than a tech support guy can do, I've seen it done, been in an office with people who do this work.

When you went to that length to dress up how difficult it is to plug in a cable and start a data transfer then using your authority to make claims that others have already made in this thread they'll struggle to take your call to authority seriously.

 

[Caracus2k]

Well lets ignore that anyone can claim to have specialist knowledge, and lets ignore that a huge huge portion of people who believe because they do a job that no one not doing the job can have a single clue about their jobs, you kept making incredibly basic claims while trying to point to your authority.

The nature of the way you described your work was an attempt to make it seem more difficult, a transfer can take 8 hours, it can be gigabytes and sometimes you have to press some buttons during that 8 hours. Yeah, it's called running software. As someone who has studied degress in maths, computing, computer science and knew several people who went into forensic accounting type areas, most of their job is little more than a tech support guy can do, I've seen it done, been in an office with people who do this work.

When you went to that length to dress up how difficult it is to plug in a cable and start a data transfer then using your authority to make claims that others have already made in this thread they'll struggle to take your call to authority seriously.

As expected your post is pretty much a text book example of an argument from ignorance.... I bet you go down a storm with your friends when you liken their jobs to tech support.... Still didn't expect much more given your choice of username and don't think their is anything constructive to be gained from me responding to any further comments you decide to make with regards to this matter.


Phone examination is not a particularly difficult area of forensic examination but it' is still one requiring some knowledge and experience especially in understanding how to interpret the results provided and limitations of the systems used in producing physical and logical downloads from digital devices such as mobile phones.

The difficult part is not necessarily the download part so much as giving evidence about such downloads and the limitations of the hardware and software used. Not quite something to be likened to 'tech support' which typically involves no more than reading a prompt on a screen in front of you whilst selecting pre selected options on a support package. You can't rely on Google or some mates you may or may not have seen doing something vaguely related in an office when you are giving evidence in court.

It is also a potentially time consuming task to both produce and review evidential downloads of certain digital devices as previously outlined.

 

[FoxEye]

Problem for you is that I do have a specialist insight which I have already alluded to.... Please remind me of your specialist knowledge on the subject?

Trying to cite an argument from authority fallacy isn't particularly useful to you or anyone else in this case as I am not using a third party...

For example if I was to provide evidence in a court of law for the prosecution or the defence in a case and the other side wished to challenge that evidence would they employ an someone with accredited knowledge on the subject or some random person with a personal point of view from an Internet forum?

Perhaps give a straight answer to DM's question...

Is it impossible/ really, really hard to use the software to filter messages by date? Are you not allowed to filter messages by date?

Is there some reason why messages cannot be filtered (at all, or in a timely manner)?

As someone just nosing in on this thread I've got to say it seems weird that something as basic as sorting/filtering by date should be a huge problem for a modern police force. But you're saying it is?

 

[Caracus2k]

Perhaps give a straight answer to DM's question...

Is it impossible/ really, really hard to use the software to filter messages by date? Are you not allowed to filter messages by date?

Is there some reason why messages cannot be filtered (at all, or in a timely manner)?

As someone just nosing in on this thread I've got to say it seems weird that something as basic as sorting/filtering by date should be a huge problem for a modern police force. But you're saying it is?

The software I am familiar with does allow filtering by date/ type and searching for things like phone numbers, email address, social media profiles etc.

I have not seen anything that gives any indication as to the proximity, time wise, of the messages quoted in the media to the alleged offence(s) so can't really comment much further. There is some indication, in the press, that some of the messages were made before or after the alleged offences but I have not seen anything more useful about their timing.

A targetted review of a digital download is appropriate to establishing 'quick time' lines of enquiry early in an investigation where time is paramount.

It's not however suitable when police are preparing a file for advice from the Crown Prosecution Service when a suspect is/ has been on bail (as was the case in this matter) . In these circumstances all unused material needs to have been throughly reviewed and scheduled by the police to assist the Crown Prosecution Service in their decision making as such material is often critical (as was the case here) to making a decision on whether a case stands a realistic prospect of conviction, which is the Crown Prosecution Services, standard for the evidential part of their decision making.


As previously stated my understanding is that the police officer in this case had reviewed the unused material in this case but (mistakenly) beleived he could not/should not disclose the details from the phone download to the Crown Prosecution Service.

I was originally replying to a poster who had made a point implying it was a quick matter to produce and or review an evidential download from a (most likely modern) smartphone in such circumstances (I don't know what sort of phone was the device examined in this case) . Which it is almost certainly not when all the material needs to be examined, understood and scheduled to ascertain whether it may or may not support the defence or undermine the prosecution in any potential court case.

 

[dowie]

I was originally replying to a poster who had made a point implying it was a quick matter to produce and or review an evidential download from a (most likely modern) smartphone in such circumstances (I don't know what sort of phone was the device examined in this case) . Which it is not when all the material needs to be examined, understood and scheduled to ascertain whether it may or may not support the defence or undermine the prosecution in any potential court case.

no that isn't what was implied, stick to what was posted instead of making things up to suit your argument please

the point, which was quite straight forward was that the 40k messages relates to everything on the device, including no doubt texts before she even met the boyfriend

the rape allegation was made 1 week after he dumped her

the actual relevant texts/messages around the alleged rapes (6 incidents) won't be any where near 40k and make it very clear that the suspect wasn't a rapist

they wouldn't take long to read

whether or not the investigator has to spend 8 hours staring at some archaic phone downloading machine because he can't multitask is perhaps debatable but still doesn't change the original point re: the 40k messages being a bit of a red herring

it took the defence barrister less than a day to review the messages and find what she needed to blow the case out of the water, seemingly it didn't take the prosecution barrister long either and it was sufficient for him to make public statements about it... the judge wasn't too happy either

perhaps the police officer was spectacularly incompetent, perhaps there was something rather more dodgy going on

 

[kindai]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-42453405

4 and a half years behind bars...

People are going to have to be held accountable for this.