California prepares to legalize marijuana on New Year's Day

[Energize]

I never said it was a trivial matter... it is still pretty silly to argue that someone should be able to kill a policeman if they try to arrest them for possession of drugs...

it is a dubious argument... morally they can't control drugs... oh but wait actually I agree with them controlling some drugs because I can see how they affect others - like I said heroin, crack cocaine, meth.. those affect the rest of the population too - they're not just controlled because the government wants to stop people's fun

You keep going around in circles stating the same misrepsentation, do you not understand what words like "inherent" mean, or are you just not even reading anything I post and seeing what you want to see?

Drug prohibition is historically rooted in racism, bigotry and the oppression of minority groups, fueled by hysteria from tabloid newspapers. It isn't based on any sort of rationality or evidence. The inescapable truth is that you have the rich, white, alcohol-drinking people in parliament legislating against recreational activities they dislike and finding reasons to justify it retrospectively.

what about other drugs used in medicine - are you against them being controlled by prescription or is it just antibiotics? Should people be allowed access to everything else over the counter at the pharmacist (or indeed if you're against regulations from any dealer/self appointed healer) and self medicate with stuff that is currently prescription only?

Only anti-infective drugs like antibiotics, we don't need nanny state thank you very much.

 

[dowie]

You keep going around in circles stating the same misrepsentation, do you not understand what words like "inherent" mean, or are you just not even reading anything I post and seeing what you want to see?

no I'm posting based on what you've written some of it was dubious thus I objected

Drug prohibition is historically rooted in racism, bigotry and the oppression of minority groups, fueled by hysteria from tabloid newspapers. It isn't based on any sort of rationality or evidence. The inescapable truth is that you have the rich, white, alcohol-drinking people in parliament legislating against recreational activities they dislike and finding reasons to justify it retrospectively.

it kind of is... I won't claim it is perfect but some things like tobacco and alcohol have been around for rather longer than say MDMA.. though opium used to be legal for example

Only anti-infective drugs like antibiotics, we don't need nanny state thank you very much.

that's fine... that is simply your an opinion, not a claim that "morally" the state has no right to control certain drugs... that was what was dubious - I still disagree with your opinion and think it is silly to say allow heroin, crack, meth etc.. or in the case of prescription drugs... to allow people to say have uncontrolled access to morphine... these things cause real harm and not just to the individual users, you can see there are clear consequences to not controlling antibiotics and therefore you support them being regulated/controlled but I do think it is a bit bizarre/naive to not also want say crack or meth controlled because of some view that it is too authoritarian to do so

 

[Energize]

no I'm posting based on what you've written some of it was dubious thus I objected

You haven't posted anything other than non-sequiturs, you have failed at every opportunity to point out any flaw in my argument that drug prohibition is immoral.

it kind of is... I won't claim it is perfect but some things like tobacco and alcohol have been around for rather longer than say MDMA.. though opium used to be legal for example

That's nonsense, most drugs made illegal under the 1974 act such as amphetamines were around for many decades prior, and no evidence existed then or has come to light since suggesting that they are more harmful than alcohol which was not criminalised under the misuse of drugs act.

One group of people criminalising the activities of another group due to a personal dislike for said activities, not evidence.

 

[dowie]

You haven't posted anything other than non-sequiturs, you have failed at every opportunity to point out any flaw in my argument that drug prohibition is immoral.

erm no, I've pointed a bit more than that... you've not demonstrated that it is immoral to control drugs... and you've undermined your own position when you concede that actually some drugs can be controlled because of the harm caused to others while simultaneously being seemingly blind to the harm caused by other drugs

That's nonsense, most drugs made illegal under the 1974 act such as amphetamines were around for many decades prior, and no evidence existed then or has come to light since suggesting that they are more harmful than alcohol which was not criminalised at the same time most other drugs were.

No it isn't nonsense, I never claimed drugs legislation was perfect, I'd support regulating and legalising cannabis for example... I still support banning say heroin/meth etc..

what is nonsense is your supposedly "moral" position that banning drugs is wrong (oh except for antibiotics because you can see why they need to be controlled).

 

[Energize]

erm no, I've pointed a bit more than that... you've not demonstrated that it is immoral to control drugs... and you've undermined your own position when you concede that actually some drugs can be controlled because of the harm caused to others while simultaneously being seemingly blind to the harm caused by other drugs

This is why I don't think you understand what the word "inherent" means when talking about harm. There are fundamental differences between prohibiting the use of recreational drugs and the misuse of antibiotics that mean that while one is immoral the other isn't necessarily so. It is not simply the fact that harm can be caused by antibiotic misuse that allows them to be controlled morally.

No it isn't nonsense, I never claimed drugs legislation was perfect, I'd support regulating and legalising cannabis for example... I still support banning say heroin/meth etc..

Trying to excuse the legal inconsistency between alcohol and other drugs by bringing up how long alcohol has been around is pure nonsense because many of the major illegal drugs have been around for decades or centuries before they were made illegal.

Furthermore your support of banning meth is not based on evidence when comparing the relative harms of alcohol and amphetamines.

 

[dowie]

This is why I don't think you understand what the word "inherent" means when talking about harm. There are fundamental differences between prohibiting the use of recreational drugs and the misuse of antibiotics that mean that while one is immoral the other isn't necessarily so. It is not simply the fact that harm can be caused by antibiotic misuse that allows them to be controlled morally.

oh here we go with the "moral" nonsense again... it is just your personal opinion stop trying to claim otherwise

Trying to excuse the legal inconsistency between alcohol and other drugs by bringing up how long alcohol has been around is pure nonsense because many of the major illegal drugs have been around for decades or centuries before they were made illegal.

Furthermore your support of banning meth is not based on evidence when comparing the relative harms of alcohol and amphetamines.

I'm not trying to excuse anything, I think I've pointed out twice now that I've never claimed drugs legislation is perfect, I'd like to see changes like the legalisation/regulation of cannabis... I still think it is far better than having no controls/take whatever drugs you like (aside from antibiotics) that you'd seem to advocate.

 

[asim18]

Morally the state does not have that right. As far as I am concerned if a police officer is trying to arrest an individual for drug use, using lethal force to resist them is justified, just as it would be against any other form of abduction.

Words cannot express how much I agree with this post.

 

[asim18]

Ok not the "lethal" bit. No one needs to die!

 

[asim18]

"Marijuana may not be deadly like other drugs, but it can impact physical and mental health."

Chronic cough and frequent respiratory infections
Mental and cognitive issues, including problems with learning and memory, hallucinations, anxiety, panic attacks and psychosis, especially in youth

A 2012 study indicated people who smoked marijuana before age 17 were 3.5 times more likely to attempt suicide than those who started smoking marijuana later in life.
Those dependent on marijuana had a higher risk of experiencing major depression and suicidal thoughts and behaviors.
Subsequent research published in 2014 indicated daily adolescent users were 18 times more likely to become dependent on marijuana, seven times more likely to attempt suicide and eight times more likely to use other illegal drugs in the future.

https://www.promises.com/resources/overdose/many-people-died-weed/

I agree that weed can alter the way you think especially if you're young. But younger generations in general are more likely to commit suicide, despite drugs.

Also, cannabis doesn't directly make people want to top themselves. You have to think about the underlying cause of that man's suicidal thoughts. Weed itself cant cause suicidal thoughts to manifest.

What if the person already has suicidal tendency for a totally different reason, and then starts using cannabis, and then topped himself. The drug doesn't have much to do with it.

 

[Chris Wilson]

The desperate lengths people here are going to to support this substance and those so weak willed and maladjusted they feel the need to take it is frightening. Not surprising, just frightening that seemingly educated people think de-criminalising marijuana is a good idea for future generations mental health and ability to function and work normally. I can spot the rambling, incoherent itinerants a mile off, as they fumble through their sad lives supported by the crutch of narcotics, pretending all is well with themselves and their lifestyle. And they have the gall to wish it upon others to be able to legally join their clan without care or consideration of the impact this **** has on them.

 

[asim18]

The desperate lengths people here are going to to support this substance and those so weak willed and maladjusted they feel the need to take it is frightening. Not surprising, just frightening that seemingly educated people think de-criminalising marijuana is a good idea for future generations mental health and ability to function and work normally. I can spot the rambling, incoherent itinerants a mile off, as they fumble through their sad lives supported by the crutch of narcotics, pretending all is well with themselves and their lifestyle. And they have the gall to wish it upon others to be able to legally join their clan without care or consideration of the impact this **** has on them.

???

There are far greater dangers to future generation's mental health than people enjoying what they want to enjoy without having to worry about the law coming along and ruining your life.

"ability to function and work normally", Normal? I hate to break it to you, but you can actually "function" and "work" BETTER if you've smoked a quality joint.

 

[Energize]

oh here we go with the "moral" nonsense again... it is just your personal opinion stop trying to claim otherwise

Are you trying to suggest that morality is not based on individual opinion?

Some people believe that individuals have the right to certain freedoms, such as the ability to engage in risky recreational activity as long as it doesn't affect others. Since drug prohibition violates this freedom, it is immoral to those that hold this opinion.

While others believe that individuals don't have the freedom to make their own such choices, so in their opinion drug prohibition wouldn't be immoral.

I am just honestly not sure what point what you are trying to make here. You clearly don't think drug prohibition is immoral, I do.

I'm not trying to excuse anything, I think I've pointed out twice now that I've never claimed drugs legislation is perfect, I'd like to see changes like the legalisation/regulation of cannabis... I still think it is far better than having no controls/take whatever drugs you like (aside from antibiotics) that you'd seem to advocate.

It's not far from perfect, its very core is rotten. The fundamental reasons for the criminalisation and the utter disregard for all scientific evidence when assessing drugs.

 

[Hotwired]

It's not far from perfect, its very core is rotten. The fundamental reasons for the criminalisation and the utter disregard for all scientific evidence when assessing drugs.

Would this be a sly dig at the legal existence of alcohol and tobacco despite its massive medical and social impact

 

[dowie]

Are you trying to suggest that morality is not based on individual opinion?

Some people believe that individuals have the right to certain freedoms, such as the ability to engage in risky recreational activity as long as it doesn't affect others. Since drug prohibition violates this freedom, it is immoral to those that hold this opinion.

While others believe that individuals don't have the freedom to make their own such choices, so in their opinion drug prohibition wouldn't be immoral.

I am just honestly not sure what point what you are trying to make here. You clearly don't think drug prohibition is immoral, I do.

That I think killing a police officer because they're going to arrest you for possession of drugs is rather a silly, that I think allowing meth to be sold because "much nanny state" but then recognising antibiotics need to be controlled is rather hypocritical or perhaps a bit naive since the argument re: harm to others can easily apply to the more damaging recreational drugs too...

It's not far from perfect, its very core is rotten. The fundamental reasons for the criminalisation and the utter disregard for all scientific evidence when assessing drugs.

I'd disagree that it is rotten to it's core... it is far better than your deregulate/legalise almost everything stance re: drugs

 

[new boy]

The desperate lengths people here are going to to support this substance and those so weak willed and maladjusted they feel the need to take it is frightening. Not surprising, just frightening that seemingly educated people think de-criminalising marijuana is a good idea for future generations mental health and ability to function and work normally. I can spot the rambling, incoherent itinerants a mile off, as they fumble through their sad lives supported by the crutch of narcotics, pretending all is well with themselves and their lifestyle. And they have the gall to wish it upon others to be able to legally join their clan without care or consideration of the impact this **** has on them.

Wow.

Do you think alcohol should be banned?

 

[Chris Wilson]

???

There are far greater dangers to future generation's mental health than people enjoying what they want to enjoy without having to worry about the law coming along and ruining your life.

"ability to function and work normally", Normal? I hate to break it to you, but you can actually "function" and "work" BETTER if you've smoked a quality joint.

So your child minder functions better and more responsibly under the influence of narcotics? As does the man re-furbishing the braking system of a 32 tonne juggernaut? The guys riveting the wings on an airliner? The bus driver taking your kids to school? I rest my case, only those already deep into narcotic abuse could come up with such a ludicrous statement as yours above! Please let me know when you are explaining how your driving skills are enhanced and your functionality improved to the bench when they question the results of your drug driving test, I'd go out of my way to hear how you convince them of all this self betterment through marijuana.

 

[Chris Wilson]

Wow.

Do you think alcohol should be banned?

Much more stringently controlled, for sure, with Draconian sentences to those that allow, encourage or ignore under age drinking.

 

[asim18]

So your child minder functions better and more responsibly under the influence of narcotics? As does the man re-furbishing the braking system of a 32 tonne juggernaut? The guys riveting the wings on an airliner? The bus driver taking your kids to school? I rest my case, only those already deep into narcotic abuse could come up with such a ludicrous statement as yours above! Please let me know when you are explaining how your driving skills are enhanced and your functionality improved to the bench when they question the results of your drug driving test, I'd go out of my way to hear how you convince them of all this self betterment through marijuana.

You're already clutching at straws. I could ask whether your child minder functions better under the influence of ALCOHOL.

Lets face it, there are exponentially more CRAP parents who are drunkards than herbalists.

 

[asim18]

There's never been a case of someone hitting their wife just because they were chilling on the couch too stoned to bother getting up.

You clearly have absolutely no idea as to the actual effects of cannabis. You just seem to think it's some sort of dementing and disinhibiting agent.

 

[Energize]

That I think killing a police officer because they're going to arrest you for possession of drugs is rather a silly, that I think allowing meth to be sold because "much nanny state" but then recognising antibiotics need to be controlled is rather hypocritical or perhaps a bit naive since the argument re: harm to others can easily apply to the more damaging recreational drugs too...

I'd disagree that it is rotten to it's core... it is far better than your deregulate/legalise almost everything stance re: drugs

Based on what? It's the prohibition that is the source of the worst harm of the illegal drugs.

Meth is nowhere near as physically harmful or dependence forming as alcohol is, in fact even long term heroin use doesn't cause the physical harm that alcohol does, the liver damage, the brain damage, cancer etc. Long term use of opioids is relatively benign when you stop the overdose risk caused by impurities and infections caused by improper use of needles.