78 year old pensioner arrested for for stabbing burglar (burglar later died in hospital)

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The_One said:
if the victim has been bludgeoned with lots of stab wounds then that's murder irrelevant of the burglary
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It depends, people can take multiple shots to the chest area and still keep coming, especially once the adrenaline kicks in. He might of grabbed a knife and stabbed him once, in the heat of the moment the guy might not realized hes been stabbed, or kept coming for revenge, the the old guy has stabbed him again. When youre possibly fighting for your life you arent thinking "oh one stab that will deter him" youre thinking "**** hes still coming at me".

I have a scar on my hand where a blade went through from my palm cleanly through the top. I didn't even notice until quite a while after when things calmed down and noticed the blood pouring out, at which point it started to hurt like hell!
 
enkoda said:
They could have arrested him on suspicion of any number of other offences (wounding with intent, GBH, manslaughter), but no, they've gone for murder which means the police have decided there was intent to kill. I'm not saying the old man shouldn't have been arrested but the charge he could be facing seems considerately excessive with regard to what has been reported.
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So the police have decided he intended to kill the person despite only arresting on suspicion?

In incidents like this it's a murder investigation until it isn't, hence the arrest. The appropriate charge would be decided following the investigation, him being arrested on suspicion of murder doesn't mean he'll be charged with that.
 
The_One said:
Wont be happening if its changed to a murder charge

He's either imo stabbed the guy in the back as the burglar was leaving the property (Unjustified use of force not proportionate)

or he's bludgeoned him to death again murder charge
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They'll won't be able to find that out anyway, unless his accomplice witnessed anything which will put his character under the microscope.
 
The_One said:
if the victim has been bludgeoned with lots of stab wounds then that's murder irrelevant of the burglary
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The victim is reported to have sustained a single stab wound and wasn't found at the scene of the alleged stabbing by the pensioner.

Edit: there has been no mention of the weapon used either.
 
enkoda said:
The victim is reported to have sustained a single stab wound and wasn't found at the scene of the alleged stabbing by the pensioner.

Edit: there has been no mention of the weapon used either.
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Seems the pensioner struggled with the burglar, took the screwdriver and stabbed him with it. Nothing else which says the contrary.
 
The_One said:
so he "might" of been stabbed when leaving the property.
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"might have"

and in that case, fine, I don't have an issue with the arrest, but seems unlikely given current info published

at the moment, without further info, I'm assuming self defence, especially given the pensioner was injured(bruised) and also apparently only one stab wound...
 
dowie said:
suppose it was instead your girlfriend and she'd been raped at knifepoint but fought back... you rush to go and see her but she's been locked away in a cell for the night even though she's the victim, she called the police and she's currently traumatised... would you be happy with it because it is "standard procedure" (supposedly)
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Or suppose your girlfriend was actually seeing the "rapist" behind your back, he wanted her to leave you for him, threatened to tell you and she panicked and stabbed him, then made up the whole rape thing? But it's fine, the police should just take her at her word because *emotive reasons*

dowie said:
Say the burglary victim has phoned the police, provided descriptions of the burglars etc.. and is willing to cooperate etc.. why the need to drag him down to a police station in the middle of the night for a full interview?
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What better way to throw off suspicion than report the crime yourself?

dowie said:
I think you're missing: a burglar, in self defence...
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Says who? The old man? Of course he does!

Prove it.
 
Squark said:
Title should be 'Outrage as Police do their job'
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Pretty much and the usual people who can't understand why being arrested actually gives someone certain guaranteed legal protections/rights whilst at the same time also ensures that in the unlikely event it does go further the police haven't lost potentially vital evidence.

Given we have one of these threads every 6-12 months and the same people complain about the Police in every one I'm surprised they haven't yet registered that being arrested means that every single thing the police do as well as what the suspect/arrestee does is on the record including the automatic right to legal representation regardless of if the person can afford it normally (IIRC that's a pretty huge difference there for the arrested vs an informal chat over a cup of tea and biccies).
 
Haggisman said:
Or suppose your girlfriend was actually seeing the "rapist" behind your back, he wanted her to leave you for him, threatened to tell you and she panicked and stabbed him, then made up the whole rape thing? But it's fine, the police should just take her at her word because *emotive reasons*
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I never said the police should take their word for it, I just don't see the need to arrest a vulnerable/traumatised victim of a crime they're already cooperative.
 
Werewolf said:
Pretty much and the usual people who can't understand why being arrested actually gives someone certain guaranteed legal protections/rights whilst at the same time also ensures that in the unlikely event it does go further the police haven't lost potentially vital evidence.

Given we have one of these threads every 6-12 months and the same people complain about the Police in every one I'm surprised they haven't yet registered that being arrested means that every single thing the police do as well as what the suspect/arrestee does is on the record including the automatic right to legal representation regardless of if the person can afford it normally (IIRC that's a pretty huge difference there for the arrested vs an informal chat over a cup of tea and biccies).
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An interview under caution affords someone the right to legal representation too, it doesn't require an arrest. Ditto to gathering evidence not requiring an arrest.

I'm not always critical of the police, I believe my criticism of police on here so far has been US police shooting dead unarmed suspects and some criticism of the rape case disclosures, I'm concerned in this case about the treatment of an elderly man who was the victim of a crime.
 
Not that I defend crime, but deserving to die for house breaking is a bit extreme.

Throw the book at him by all means and dish out all the punishments deemed appropriate by the law, sure, I don't think "scum deserves to be dead" is much of a response though.

All 78 year olds aren't created equal, you may be thinking of your Dad or Grandad which is fine, but just think about all the wrong 'uns you know, they grow old as well, for all the "poor, frail old man" comments there could easily be more to this, 25 years ago he could have been all sorts of nasty.

I don't know any young people whose immediate response to a burglar with a screwdriver would be to wrestle it off them and stab them to death, never mind any old ones.
 
Squark said:
Title should be 'Outrage as Police do their job'
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In America it would literally, no exaggeration, be the police giving the guy a pat on the back and a nice story in the news about "Old Age pensioner stands his ground and defends his property".

Amazing the cultural difference.
 
The_One said:
so he "might" of been stabbed when leaving the property.
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Even if this were the case, what evidence do the police have that there was an intention to kill? Does every incident of someone getting stabbed in a non-lethal capacity have the suspect charged with attempted murder? No, there has to be some realistic chance of the suspect being charged with the offence they are arrested for.
Again, the only aspect of this that I have issue with is the arrest for murder, which, based solely on the information we have at hand, seems excessive....let's see what happens shall we?
 
dowie said:
I never said the police should take their word for it, I just don't see the need to arrest a vulnerable/traumatised victim of a crime they're already cooperative.
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The contradiction in this post is pretty impressive!

So we're not going to just take their word for it, but we'll go ahead and assume they're the traumatised victim, even though the only reason to believe that is because they've said so?

At the time of arrest, it's entirely possible that the only facts the police were aware of were "someone has been stabbed" and "this old guy did it"*

*Even this is not necessarily true, he could be covering for a younger friend/relative because he knows "old frail guy" is more likely to get the sympathy vote than "young fit drug dealer"
 
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Haggisman said:
The contradiction in this post is pretty impressive!

So we're not going to just take their word for it, but we'll go ahead and assume they're the traumatised victim, even though the only reason to believe that is because they've said so?
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Again, I never said you need to take their word for it. And their word isn't the only reason to believe they're the victim of a burglary, the injured (then dead) burglar is a bit of a give away too yes I know you have your convoluted alternative about how this was all some cunning murder ploy etc.. but get a grip.
 
dowie said:
Again, I never said you need to take their word for it. And their word isn't the only reason to believe they're the victim of a burglary, yes I know you have your convoluted alternative about how this was all some cunning murder ploy and he invited them around etc.. but get a grip.
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You are very naive, and I really hope you don't work in any form of law enforcement/investigation :/
 
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