Alfie Evans...

edit - this post was in reply to the below, thread merge stuck a load of other posts in between

Turning off life support IS euthanasia no matter how you look at it, therefore under English it should be illegal yet it is not, people do not even consider it euthanasia despite it being so

The only excuse I hear for this is because of "abuse" yet why is there no abuse in turning off life support when the person in question cannot even have a say in the matter ?

seems pretty obvious that if it is permitted to turn off life support (knowing that the inevitable result of that action will be death) then it ought to be allowed to given an injection to achieve the same in as humane a way as possible
 
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No there's no guarantee however I would gladly take the risks if it ensures I have the freedom to choose how I meet my maker

Seeing as the risks are of people being killed when they don't really want to be this certainly errs on the dark side.

Turning off life support IS euthanasia no matter how you look at it, therefore under English it should be illegal yet it is not, people do not even consider it euthanasia despite it being so

The only excuse I hear for this is because of "abuse" yet why is there no abuse in turning off life support when the person in question cannot even have a say in the matter ?

I was clear the first time on your grouping and you're coming back to say it doesn't count so I'll say it again with different words.

One scenario is ceasing to support a self destructive body which will cease to function in the short term.
The other is to become the immediate cause of death to a body which is not in the same state.

Or once more:

Death occurs when you cease to interfere
Death occurs because you interfered

I'm not inclined to change my view on that. I would also say it covers your "abuse" angle which is interesting since you put quotation marks around a word I didn't use.

And finally why is this merged with the kids thread. I saw two people posting about the kid in this separate thread because they can't read and now it's merged so we have a bizzare interjection of when we consider killing people ok.
 
Turning off life support IS euthanasia no matter how you look at it, therefore under English it should be illegal yet it is not, people do not even consider it euthanasia despite it being so

Turning off life support is not euthanasia under English law in any way.

Euthanasia is actively ending life. Turning off life support is to no longer actively prevent death. There is a very large difference.
 
The only excuse I hear for this is because of "abuse" yet why is there no abuse in turning off life support when the person in question cannot even have a say in the matter ?

Turning off life support when death is inevitable is not abuse. A quick, painless death is the best outcome for Alfie.

There is no better option.
 
One scenario is ceasing to support a self destructive body which will cease to function in the short term.
The other is to become the immediate cause of death to a body which is not in the same state.

Or once more:

Death occurs when you cease to interfere
Death occurs because you interfered

I'm not inclined to change my view on that. I would also say it covers your "abuse" angle which is interesting since you put quotation marks around a word I didn't use.

And finally why is this merged with the kids thread. I saw two people posting about the kid in this separate thread because they can't read and now it's merged so we have a bizzare interjection of when we consider killing people ok.

Yeah wtf with merging threads when it was nothing to do with Alfie and was about the right to choose when one dies, seems the mod had as much reading comprehension as the other morons making it about Alfie

The thing you're missing is that it's specific to debilitating incurable conditions, if I get a cancer that is incurable and will ultimately have my body destroy itself and cease to function what difference should it make if I die while my body is still functioning or when it stops functioning

Why must we force the person to endure having to go through their body progressively shutting down in order to euthanise them by depriving them of life supporting methods ?

Do you not think that it is at all a little ****** up in that in order for us to euthanise them we must make them first reach a point that euthanising is merely the act of doing nothing ?

I mean I get it, if you don't want that choice fine you can go through the normal methods of prolonging your suffering in order to get a "fair" death, however I and a great many others would prefer to choose when we die if we ever get a soul/life destroying illness

Turning off life support is not euthanasia under English law in any way.

Euthanasia is actively ending life. Turning off life support is to no longer actively prevent death. There is a very large difference.

It's semantics though and a pretty weak argument to say that doing nothing is okay while doing something is not

If life support is the only thing keeping you alive and someone turns it off they are ending your life, they are making a decision to end you it is effectively euthanasia

If you were on life support and one of your family members turned it off without consulting anyone, they would have murdered you and would be charged for it

So it's either no longer actively preventing death or it's a method to kill someone, it cannot be both because they are at conflict with one another
 
It’s not semantics to medics or our legal system. It might be to you.

Am I euthanising a 90 year old if I chose not to ventilate them when they have a catastrophic stroke? Because that happens on a daily basis.

Withholding and withdrawing life sustaining treatment vs euthanasia are very different outside of your world.
 
The thing you're missing is that it's specific to debilitating incurable conditions, if I get a cancer that is incurable and will ultimately have my body destroy itself and cease to function what difference should it make if I die while my body is still functioning or when it stops functioning

Why must we force the person to endure having to go through their body progressively shutting down in order to euthanise them by depriving them of life supporting methods ?

Do you not think that it is at all a little ****** up in that in order for us to euthanise them we must make them first reach a point that euthanising is merely the act of doing nothing ?

I mean I get it, if you don't want that choice fine you can go through the normal methods of prolonging your suffering in order to get a "fair" death, however I and a great many others would prefer to choose when we die if we ever get a soul/life destroying illness

I'm not feeling inclined to change my opinion on it.

A smear was mentioned earlier that religion interferes with this kind of thing being allowed. Maybe. I'm skeptical of any kind of higher power and find that very curious.

After all, a major selling point of any religion is to reassure you that there is after death accomodation and therefore it's not as bad as all that.

On the other hand if cold reality takes over when you die then you're just some electrical signals living in the bag of chemicals called a brain temporarily getting to play with the soft toy we call a body and therefore death is the worst thing that can possibly happen.

I have the latter opinion so going by that I find it distasteful to prematurely delete someone elses only existence by killing their body. If your body's wrecked and failing on you, fair enough, all aboard the one way palliative care train.
 
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The one where the parents refused the treatment offered; removed Ayesha from the hospital without consent, and with a feeding tube that they didn’t know how to manage or use; and did all this before any judgement had been made about whether the NHS would fund the proton beam therapy?

Even ignoring that, Ayesha had a treatable disease. Alfie doesn’t.


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Yeh, I was trying to bring up that the state doesn't always make the best decision. This case the point of the parents was fine and that judgement came out with potentially the best result.
Cancer isn't exactly a "treatable disease", when you're fighting something with poison in your body and only a small percentage of a success rate it's not considered fully treatable and in some cases could be too severe. It's not the same league as frigging chlamydia
 
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Yeh, I was trying to bring up that the state doesn't always make the best decision. This case the point of the parents was fine and that judgement came out with potentially the best result.
Cancer isn't exactly a "treatable disease", when you're fighting something with poison in your body and only a small percentage of a success rate it's not considered fully treatable and in some cases could be too severe. It's not the same league as frigging chlamydia

Cancer cure rates in paediatrics is above 80%, it is absolutely a treatable disease, just one that needs substantial treatment with associated side effects and late effects. The Aysha king case is an interesting one, not sure it was played right by Southampton.
 
RIP Alfie :(. Such a sad story and I know it sounds callous but at least he will no longer suffer.
 
It’s not semantics to medics or our legal system. It might be to you.

Am I euthanising a 90 year old if I chose not to ventilate them when they have a catastrophic stroke? Because that happens on a daily basis.

Withholding and withdrawing life sustaining treatment vs euthanasia are very different outside of your world.


Isn' the usual "withdrawal of treatment" food and water though?

Killing someone through dehydration is a pretty grim way to do it if the outcome is certain death an injection seems the better path
 
Yeh, I was trying to bring up that the state doesn't always make the best decision. This case the point of the parents was fine and that judgement came out with potentially the best result.
Cancer isn't exactly a "treatable disease", when you're fighting something with poison in your body and only a small percentage of a success rate it's not considered fully treatable and in some cases could be too severe. It's not the same league as frigging chlamydia


Over all survival rates are above 50% for cancer now
 
Isn' the usual "withdrawal of treatment" food and water though?

Killing someone through dehydration is a pretty grim way to do it if the outcome is certain death an injection seems the better path

I’m a paediatrician, in children withdrawal of treatment is nearly always stopping intensive care (typically artificial ventilation).

Death through withholding nutrition/hydration in my limited experience in adults was never as bad as it sounded. With a proper treatment plan (unfortunately the LCP got mired in unwarranted controversy) I saw mostly calm, unagitated deaths.
 
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