Yup, the assertion being that non-religious people don't really care if their loved ones languish in a morgue for a few extra days. Burnsy mentioned that fast-tracking people happens routinely almost everywhere else in the UK without complaint. I don't believe that's because non-religous people consented to it, just that they've never been asked and as a result aren't aware that this is public policy.
Not discriminating is discrimination
- Thread starter SlyReaper
- Start date
no I was highlighting a flaw in a system proposed by someone where he thought it would have no impact
where have I posted that it would be acceptable to discriminate?
this is my opinion on the ruling:
what is yours?
Completely agree dowie. Anyone who wants to be fast tracked should have the right with equal priority to Jews or Muslims, according to this ruling, lest it be discriminatory itself. Which shows how stupid it is.
Caracus2k highited the flaw well by proposing his own religion that has a firmly held belief to be prioritised for all state matters including tax refunds, NHS appointments etc. It's all rubbish, "firmly held beliefs" just can't be used as a differentiator for offering priority treatment.
Caracus2k highited the flaw well by proposing his own religion that has a firmly held belief to be prioritised for all state matters including tax refunds, NHS appointments etc. It's all rubbish, "firmly held beliefs" just can't be used as a differentiator for offering priority treatment.
It' literally a queue where you are letting some people in preferentially.
Aside from being speeded up its pretty much identical.
yes but with his alternate model there is some "magic" at the start checkout person will process the first few fast track people in zero time so they disappear from the queue and then any other fast track people will arrive at very specific intervals (and no more in one go than the first few that were processed in zero time) so that they have no effect... oh and the queue can't grow for this to work, it has to stay at the same size....
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Why not simply serve everyone in the order that they appear without discriminating or having to ask each new joiner if they would like to "self-discriminate"?
By and large this technique seems to work well in Supermarkets . . . although this may not be the case in Italy . . .
Discriminating in favour of Muslims and Jews is as unjustifiable as discriminating against Muslims and Jews . . . or against Irish, Blacks and Gypsies which was I believe deemed to be acceptable in the past.
By and large this technique seems to work well in Supermarkets . . . although this may not be the case in Italy . . .
Discriminating in favour of Muslims and Jews is as unjustifiable as discriminating against Muslims and Jews . . . or against Irish, Blacks and Gypsies which was I believe deemed to be acceptable in the past.
Well firstly we've just had a court ruling, secondly some people want to be fast tracked while others (D.P. For example) have been adamant that they don't care and so an opt in system for anyone who does care about it would be fair. Jews and Muslims can get fast tracked as per the ruiling but also anyone else too ergo there is no discrimination on the basis of religion, people can simple express a preference.
It isn't discriminating in favour of Jews and Muslims if the fast track is open to anyone who wants to join it, no one is discriminated against based on religion in that system, that's the point.
So what you're saying is, in an argument all about whether it would on average slow people not in the fasttrack queue down, that it wouldn't on average slow people not in the fasttrack queue down?
That sounds like we've reached an understanding
(peaks and troughs are just that - peaks and troughs. Sometimes it gives and sometimes it takes. On average, there would be no impact. Plus, peaks and troughs exist in any setup, and there's no reason to think there wouldn't be controls in place to throttle processing of the fasttrack queue if it were in danger of swamping the system)
No it clearly wouldn't, if you speed it up for some you slow it down for others... your average time for processing the first fs was zero seconds... you then carried that over as a fudge and maintained a constant queue length to try and mask the delay.
the argument I made was if the average wait time is the same and you speed up processing for some, you slow it down for others...that is factually correct and you can't show otherwise, what you have done is proposed one system where you've changed the average wait time by removing people and now claiming you can apply the same fudge every time the queue grows:
That sounds like we've reached an understanding
(peaks and troughs are just that - peaks and troughs. Sometimes it gives and sometimes it takes. On average, there would be no impact. Plus, peaks and troughs exist in any setup, and there's no reason to think there wouldn't be controls in place to throttle processing of the fasttrack queue if it were in danger of swamping the system)
Again you're just chucking in more magic handwaving... you can only claim that the fast track gets processed without affecting the slow queue average if you assume the coroner works extra hard to make up for the inherent delay caused by any additional fast track people and processe them in zero time or perhaps works over time every time they appear. You're no longer comparing two systems, you're just making up excuses to fudge it.
So yeah you can have a fast track system if you actually don't compare two equal systems and dedicate extra resources to the new one (not just someone working extra hard at the start as you previously claimed but actually working extra hard any time additional Jews/Muslims appear) but then that changes the argument... you've had to introduce two fudges now because you're unable to admit you're wrong.
like I said at the start when you first tried to introduce the handwaving argument:
That is exactly what you've done to make your claim fit... you've had to make one system more efficient than the other, make the coroner work quicker with your fast track system, every time the fast track queue increases. You can then pretend there is no impact...
it's like you could claim that someone could step in front of you in the super market queue and not affect your wait time... because you assume 0 seconds for them to be processed... it is a complete fudge
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OK lets go full infant school mode and use counters! 
Fast track system first.
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Now here's Ethel's queue without the fast trackers.
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So you can clearly see with no fast trackers everyone is processed in 8 days instead of 1 day for fast trackers and 10 days for standard.
Fast track system first.
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Now here's Ethel's queue without the fast trackers.
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So you can clearly see with no fast trackers everyone is processed in 8 days instead of 1 day for fast trackers and 10 days for standard.
Positive discrimination seems to be perfectly acceptable to todays leftists though just so long as you aren't positively discriminating in favour of whites, in which case you're a massive far right racist and which funnily enough, sounds eerily like something Enoch Powell tried to warn people about.
It's utterly bizarre.
If Jewish/Islamic law says that burial must take place on the day of death (which isn't going to happen in this country) or as soon as possible afterwards, what difference does an extra day, two days, or five days actually make? Does further delay mean the deceased's soul doesn't quite make it to heaven, or that they don't get premium seating next to God? Are they stuck in some kind of temporary limbo after which they have to go back into the heaven queue? Can these in-limbo souls apply for a fast-track ticket so they can jump to the front again? Or are they just exerting their self-appointed religious privilege in order to gain entitlement over others?
I would like to think that the judges made a rational, informed decision based upon facts and evidence, the crucial one being proof that a soul exists. If this wasn't demonstrated in court then there can be no rational basis for warranting Jewish/Muslim burials to be fast-tracked. What's that - they didn't prove a soul exists? Are you saying that special pleading was allowed to influence a High Court ruling? Hmmm, seems that way...
Even more astonishing is that one of the judges in this case, Lord Justice Rabinder Singh, is a staunch supporter of equality under the Human Rights Act, yet decides it is lawful to discriminate on purely religious grounds.
Here's a quote from https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/...olicy-st-pancras-cab-rank-high-court-1.463195
So it's rationally justifiable to give preferential treatment to irrational beliefs? What is this guy on?
How does the policy not strike any balance - it's operated on the fairest system of all, that of non-discrimination!
What he actually means is that Jewish and Muslim beliefs take precedent over others because their God has told them they are more special than anyone else. Better not tell the Rabbi that according to the Quran all non-Muslims go to hell...
[/rant mode off]
It's utterly bizarre.
If Jewish/Islamic law says that burial must take place on the day of death (which isn't going to happen in this country) or as soon as possible afterwards, what difference does an extra day, two days, or five days actually make? Does further delay mean the deceased's soul doesn't quite make it to heaven, or that they don't get premium seating next to God? Are they stuck in some kind of temporary limbo after which they have to go back into the heaven queue? Can these in-limbo souls apply for a fast-track ticket so they can jump to the front again? Or are they just exerting their self-appointed religious privilege in order to gain entitlement over others?
I would like to think that the judges made a rational, informed decision based upon facts and evidence, the crucial one being proof that a soul exists. If this wasn't demonstrated in court then there can be no rational basis for warranting Jewish/Muslim burials to be fast-tracked. What's that - they didn't prove a soul exists? Are you saying that special pleading was allowed to influence a High Court ruling? Hmmm, seems that way...
Even more astonishing is that one of the judges in this case, Lord Justice Rabinder Singh, is a staunch supporter of equality under the Human Rights Act, yet decides it is lawful to discriminate on purely religious grounds.
Here's a quote from https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/...olicy-st-pancras-cab-rank-high-court-1.463195
So it's rationally justifiable to give preferential treatment to irrational beliefs? What is this guy on?
How does the policy not strike any balance - it's operated on the fairest system of all, that of non-discrimination!
What he actually means is that Jewish and Muslim beliefs take precedent over others because their God has told them they are more special than anyone else. Better not tell the Rabbi that according to the Quran all non-Muslims go to hell...
[/rant mode off]
What's so funny about this particular case is that so many people are ignorant of or at least ignore the powerful lobbies involved on the part of the religious, especially the Jews.
The very fact that this case was brought by such a lobby group is somewhat an indication of this. This all started over a spat when the Coroner stood up to this bullying Jewish lobby group...... which lead to cancellation of 'special' arrangements for Jews...........
The judge quoted is an absolute disgrace this has got nothing to do with "equality" (even of outcome). This decision enforces a status quo whereby Jews in particular don't have to comply with the same rules as everyone else and are afforded a superior service to the detriment of the rest of society.
You can bet on the fact that if a situation allowed for a powerful white, male, non religious lobby to effectively ensure their members received preferential treatment over everyone else that 'Lord' Singh and his ilk would be all over it in a rash decrying the system that allowed for such injustice!
Don't think they were (and now will get) preferential treatment?.... don't take it just from me take it from this Rabbi....
What an absolute disgusting disgrace. Any one seriously want to come on this forum and defend this?!
And if you don't trust the national secular society to report truthfully you can find the same quote on the Jewish Chronicle!
Because I can guarantee you wont have direct access to a coroner that will go out their way to help you in the middle of the night if you don't have a powerful lobby behind you!
I would also note that if you are Jewish and actually have an interest in reducing anti Semitism it probably isn't a good idea to publically demand special treatment and effectively gloat about how Jews have been receiving such preferential treatment!
The entitlement on display is staggering!
So the family had to wait a whole three working days for a body to be released just before Christmas and apparently initially thought that the coroner should expedite their particular case so quickly that they could bury him within twelve hours of his death (at 4am in the morning!).
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Your link was most illuminating: https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/...oners-refusal-to-prioritise-religious-burials
The judge has effectively said that bullying and persecution is acceptable and is a lawful right of religious minorities.
Puts things in perspective a bit, doesn't it?
The judge has effectively said that bullying and persecution is acceptable and is a lawful right of religious minorities.
What's even more disgusting is when you realise that Lord Justice Rabinder Singh, as an observant Sikh, of course has a vested interest in protecting religious privileges!....
What with Sikhs getting some of the most outrageous, religion based, special treatment from the law in the England and Wales.
Including being allowed to carry knives that would see other people prosecuted....
And why do Sikhs (traditionally) carry knives (the Kirpan)...... for 'self defence' which would be considered an admission of guilt for anyone else............
Because its not like a Sikh would ever attack someone with a Kirpan now is it......
and who doesn't think its a great idea to bring along a knife to a children's party at an amusement park and refuse the managements rather generous offer of a 'ceremonial' knife in place of the actual knife being carried?
What with Sikhs getting some of the most outrageous, religion based, special treatment from the law in the England and Wales.
Including being allowed to carry knives that would see other people prosecuted....
And why do Sikhs (traditionally) carry knives (the Kirpan)...... for 'self defence' which would be considered an admission of guilt for anyone else............
Because its not like a Sikh would ever attack someone with a Kirpan now is it......
and who doesn't think its a great idea to bring along a knife to a children's party at an amusement park and refuse the managements rather generous offer of a 'ceremonial' knife in place of the actual knife being carried?
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Who will be the primary users of such a system?
Islamofauxbia you mean... Another label... What words are next on your leftist bingo? B... H... S... M.... N....
Man of Honour
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Religious people, mainly Jews and Muslims. You chose to only focus on Islam, something common amongst Islamophobes.
The jews basically lobbied the judiciary to prosecute count Dankula for a joke, these religious nutters are a threat to civilised society.