Why are we not taking our ecological responsibilities more seriously?

StriderX · 3 Jun 2018 at 12:03

Ultimately unless we basically give a ton of money to developing nations to not attempt to industrialise poorly, then it really matters very little what the West does, we may have cleaner air, but the oceans will be dead regardless.

I think people should start preparing for when the word "fish" is relegated to history.

FoxEye · 3 Jun 2018 at 12:13

Efour said:
ITs not Western Society that needs to get its ideas together, we have, its just a matter of time.

THE WHOLE rest of the world needs to care, which it won't because caring costs money.

Nah, you just have to look at the number of people fly tipping, throwing the litter on the ground, etc, to realise we're no better than anyone else.

The lanes near where I live are absolutely filled with litter, from people chucking it out the window as they drive. We help clean it up, and you can't travel more than, say, 100 yards before you've filled a black sack, in some places.

That kind of quantity of litter proves it's not just a minority of people. You want to know what most of it is? Fast-food containers and wrappings. Costa coffee cups. Burger wraps. Coke bottles. Those plastic foam cartons you get fish and chips in.

Maximum convenience to have your food come in a disposal container; minimum effort to just chuck it in the hedge.

Orionaut · 3 Jun 2018 at 12:40

Just to add comments earlier.

The problem with the tragedy of the commons is that the first people to try to behave responsibly are likely to be severely disadvantaged as a result compared to the others who are not.

This is one of the reasons why "Free Trade" isn't actually a very good thing.

It is no good at all claiming the high ground by imposing stringent regulations that eventually destroy our own industries only the then import the products that we used to make for ourselves from places where they just dont give a damn.

We cant have environmental protection without being supported by economic protection.

If there is one thing we should use brexit for it is to escape the insanity of global free trade.

Efour · 3 Jun 2018 at 13:13

FoxEye said:
Nah, you just have to look at the number of people fly tipping, throwing the litter on the ground, etc, to realise we're no better than anyone else.

The lanes near where I live are absolutely filled with litter, from people chucking it out the window as they drive. We help clean it up, and you can't travel more than, say, 100 yards before you've filled a black sack, in some places.

That kind of quantity of litter proves it's not just a minority of people. You want to know what most of it is? Fast-food containers and wrappings. Costa coffee cups. Burger wraps. Coke bottles. Those plastic foam cartons you get fish and chips in.

Maximum convenience to have your food come in a disposal container; minimum effort to just chuck it in the hedge.

You are 100% correct but globally world production needs to shift to biodegradable or paper products in the next generation.

MikeTimbers · 3 Jun 2018 at 13:42

Narj said:
Seriously, I mean with heartbreaking incidents like this going on, why do we not firstly limit our consumption of plastic, and secondly, limit the number of people who will use this deadly rubbish.. Maybe time for population control is here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-44344468

Half of me thinks I think I'm turning into a hippy but the other half thinks I'm being a harsh, pragmatic human on the right side of the fight... I really think we're at a tipping point where our actions are verging on turning our global habitat into a complete dystopian s**thole.

I was on holiday last week on what I thought was an unspoiled beach. I saw smatterings of plastic absolutely everywhere after high tide had receded and it's depressing. What should have been happy times photo wise turned into "wtf is happening here?".

The average Thai uses 8 plastic bags every day. If you buy a can of coke from a stall, it will be poured into a plastic bag with some ice and a plastic straw while they keep the can. All street food taken away is packed in multiple plastic bags. Go to a 7/11 to buy one thing and it will be given to you in a plastic bag. Any popular picnic spot on a Monday morning will be strewn with thousands of plastic bags and partially eaten meals.

It's the same across the world although particularly bad in SE Asia. 25 years ago I went to Boracay - a then relatively unspoilt paradise - and on the beach was a mesage saying "Please look after our beach, it's all we have". Today Boracay is a cesspit.

StriderX · 3 Jun 2018 at 16:45

FoxEye said:
Nah, you just have to look at the number of people fly tipping, throwing the litter on the ground, etc, to realise we're no better than anyone else.

The lanes near where I live are absolutely filled with litter, from people chucking it out the window as they drive. We help clean it up, and you can't travel more than, say, 100 yards before you've filled a black sack, in some places.

That kind of quantity of litter proves it's not just a minority of people. You want to know what most of it is? Fast-food containers and wrappings. Costa coffee cups. Burger wraps. Coke bottles. Those plastic foam cartons you get fish and chips in.

Maximum convenience to have your food come in a disposal container; minimum effort to just chuck it in the hedge.

Well whats the point?

The entirety of Europe could stop using plastic today and it'd still not solve the problem.

mmj_uk · 3 Jun 2018 at 16:53

The Japanese kill whales for fun but the OP thinks mass sterilisation of humans is a measured response to one whale dying from eating lots of plastic bags. RIP sensible logic.

neil_g · 3 Jun 2018 at 17:02

mmj_uk said:
The Japanese kill whales for fun but the OP thinks mass sterilisation of humans is a measured response to one whale dying from eating lots of plastic bags. RIP sensible logic.

except its not just one whale is it.

RIP common sense.

Diddums · 3 Jun 2018 at 19:30

What the **** are we doing

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44215882

adolf hamster · 3 Jun 2018 at 19:39

humanity as a species is just like individuals, we'll just procrastinate and put off doing anything until it's absolutely necessary.

i do beleive population control is going to be required at some point, it's a very simple conclusion to draw that humanity keeps on increasing in number but there's a finite number of people earth is able to support, and the more of us there are the less there's going to be to go around until it's not enough. unless we crack terraforming or interstellar travel before we hit critical mass, but i'm not optimistic about that.

thing is, the longer we leave these issues without dealing with them the more drastic the action is going to become to save us. some mild limits on family size (not a 1 child policy) will turn into a 1 child policy will turn to a 0 child policy will turn to forced sterilization will turn to all out genocide.

the same goes for the environment, except if we don't apply a modicum of common sense now (ie use plastic only where it's actually necessary) it's just going to build up the problem we'll face in the future.

cyber69 · 3 Jun 2018 at 19:42

Who dreamt up the idea of putting micro plastic beads in face and body scrub? Where did they think it would all end up?

LeMson · 3 Jun 2018 at 20:09

cyber69 said:
Where did they think it would all end up?

As profit in the bank, cha ching

Rozzy85 · 3 Jun 2018 at 20:33

LeMson said:
As profit in the bank, cha ching

Short term profits at the cost of the environment is still the prevailing attitude, I don't think that will change until it's too late. Ultimately everyone is to blame since we've all contributed towards it by wanting more stuff and will not compromise. That's given rise to companies like Apple where they want you to upgrade every 2 years just so they can remain profitable. Doesn't matter to them that the old devices end up in landfill.

~>Dg<~ · 3 Jun 2018 at 20:58

dont worry we will soon be able to go to other planets or the moon and destroy them.

Smokey Deza · 3 Jun 2018 at 21:09

Rozzy85 said:
. Ultimately everyone is to blame since we've all contributed towards it by wanting more stuff and will not compromise.

Some more than others. Allow me to mount my high horse.

I have not upgraded my PC in nearly 7 years.
I have not upgraded my phone going on 5 years.
In fact, when I buy something new, it's because I really need it and not because it's old and no longer shiny.
I recycle.
I walk everywhere. 10+ miles a day easy and I'll carry my rubbish to the nearest bin 2 miles away and not discard it on the floor because I can't be arsed to carry it.
I don't do takeaways, but that's generally down to exorbitant prices and I like cooking

I also don't need to the BBC to report on how big fish choked on some bags to start making me give a toss.

Amp34 · 3 Jun 2018 at 21:23

Smokey Deza said:
Some more than others. Allow me to mount my high horse.

I have not upgraded my PC in nearly 7 years.
I have not upgraded my phone going on 5 years.
In fact, when I buy something new, it's because I really need it and not because it's old and no longer shiny.
I recycle.
I walk everywhere. 10+ miles a day easy and I'll carry my rubbish to the nearest bin 2 miles away and not discard it on the floor because I can't be arsed to carry it.
I don't do takeaways, but that's generally down to exorbitant prices and I like cooking

I also don't need to the BBC to report on how big fish choked on some bags to start making me give a toss.

Yet, even wth all of that, your environmental impact is probably significantly higher than 90% of the worlds humans.

That’s the unfortunately issue with modern western societies and the issue the world faces as the rest of the human population strive to become more like the developed world.

There’s no real solution except a smaller human population (which can be done without sterilization/genocide and that trope - education, women’s rights and access to contraception and family planning are three that have been proven to help), but that doesn’t mean we can’t try and reduce our own impacts.

Efour · 3 Jun 2018 at 21:28

I'm all up for genocide as an answer.

Narj · 4 Jun 2018 at 13:14

adolf hamster said:
i do beleive population control is going to be required at some point, it's a very simple conclusion to draw that humanity keeps on increasing in number but there's a finite number of people earth is able to support, and the more of us there are the less there's going to be to go around until it's not enough. unless we crack terraforming or interstellar travel before we hit critical mass, but i'm not optimistic about that.

Yep it's not a massive leap to suss out that as the population continues to grow at such a rate that these kind of problems are going to multiply in a similar fashion, too. You'd think it'd make sense to encourage a lower birth rate and hence population globally - probably via "soft" incentives (eg: tax breaks) rather than firing squads but then that means all the pyramid scheme economies would collapse.

Some interesting reading here: https://ourworldindata.org/world-population-growth - I wonder if the eventual slowdown/stabilization is a bit optimistic. I think if medical advances down the line allow everyone to live to 150 then that might not be quite right.

adolf hamster · 4 Jun 2018 at 14:19

Narj said:
Yep it's not a massive leap to suss out that as the population continues to grow at such a rate that these kind of problems are going to multiply in a similar fashion, too. You'd think it'd make sense to encourage a lower birth rate and hence population globally - probably via "soft" incentives (eg: tax breaks) rather than firing squads but then that means all the pyramid scheme economies would collapse.

Some interesting reading here: https://ourworldindata.org/world-population-growth - I wonder if the eventual slowdown/stabilization is a bit optimistic. I think if medical advances down the line allow everyone to live to 150 then that might not be quite right.

the big question is what exactly is the critical mass that we need to watch out for? advances in things like farming and medicine certainly have helped us support a much larger population than could otherwise be acheived, but even then there's got to be a limit.

we also need to decide what we want, do we want a smaller populace with more to go around, or are we content to live at the limit with barely enough to go around?

Rimsy · 4 Jun 2018 at 16:51

People are very good at making small gestures seem bigger than they really are whilst missing the bigger picture.
A family member of mine is all over recycling and using wooden toothbrushes and harping on to everyone about how we should be more like her yet is preparing to have child #4...
Guess we'll have to wait til the seas are toxic and all the fish are gone before it's acceptable to suggest not having children is a pretty simple way of saving the planet in the long run.