How long until manufacturers go completely electric?

Has anyone mentioned the other big issues with current EV's? - the batteries. Not from a perspective of time to charge, and charge capacity, but the costs and environmental damage of production, and the life of the battery.

Most reports I read suggest that in typical use and with current and foreseeable technologies, an EV will need a new battery every 5 + years, at a significant cost to the owner (and the environment), perhaps £5000+.

Additionally I don't know if anyone has searched battery factories on line, but but the reports of environmental damage, caused both by the battery factories themselves, and the associated supply and disposal industries do not make for pleasant reading.
 
Has anyone mentioned the other big issues with current EV's? - the batteries. Not from a perspective of time to charge, and charge capacity, but the costs and environmental damage of production, and the life of the battery.

Most reports I read suggest that in typical use and with current and foreseeable technologies, an EV will need a new battery every 5 + years, at a significant cost to the owner (and the environment), perhaps £5000+.

Additionally I don't know if anyone has searched battery factories on line, but but the reports of environmental damage, caused both by the battery factories themselves, and the associated supply and disposal industries do not make for pleasant reading.

Disposing of lithium batteries is going to be a big problem as well. You can sometimes re-use it, but lithium is near impossible to get rid of.

Current EV tech is a stop-gap really until something better is developed. It's not a cure for air pollution, it's just moving it all somewhere else.
 
Current EV tech is a stop-gap really until something better is developed. It's not a cure for air pollution, it's just moving it all somewhere else.

Pretty much all technology is a “stop gap”, as it rarely stands still. All modes of transport will be a stop gap until we have teleportation and antimatter propelled hyperdrive!
 
Has anyone mentioned the other big issues with current EV's? - the batteries. Not from a perspective of time to charge, and charge capacity, but the costs and environmental damage of production, and the life of the battery.

Most reports I read suggest that in typical use and with current and foreseeable technologies, an EV will need a new battery every 5 + years, at a significant cost to the owner (and the environment), perhaps £5000+.

Additionally I don't know if anyone has searched battery factories on line, but but the reports of environmental damage, caused both by the battery factories themselves, and the associated supply and disposal industries do not make for pleasant reading.

There's an issue with Lithium as a whole because a majority(?) comes from the DRC, which has few controls/a stable political/domestic system to implement it. That can be worked around by supply chain management and audit which is what larger companies normally do.

The requirement to change batteries every 5 years is a fallacy (better than 2 years which is apparently what the majority of the UK population think). Most battery packs useful car life will be much higher than that. 5 year old packs in the Model S are still in the 90% area IIRC and many manufacturers have 8 year warranties on their battery packs.

When a battery pack reaches the end of it's useful life in a car it can subsequently be used in storage systems, so there's no real need to break them down to their constituent parts for a quite possibly a couple of decades or more.
 
Problem is the batteries WILL need replacing at some point no matter how well you look after them. Once they get near the end of the guaranteed period you will never be able to sell it, because the bill is huge (currently, it will probably get cheaper). The equivalent to buying a whole brand new engine every X years.

We haven't really seen the full life cycle yet. There aren't enough around and they haven't been around long enough. Though some of the batteries in older Priuses are started to brick.
 
Forget that side. The oil extraction is the energy source comparison between the two drivelines.

Oil extraction really isn't very dirty or harmful to the environment when it's done properly. Less so than most large mines. No spoil heaps and the only above ground damage is usually a small gravel pad (onshore) and some concrete pillars when done offshore (which fish love as they create artificial reefs.

The processing can be a bit messy, and obviously the biggest issues are the emissions once they're consumed. There are also environmental issues in less strict regimes, and issues with roads the companies build to get to pads. Often they can inadvertently open up areas that weren't previously accessible to other industries (usually illegal forestry and cattle), which is a major source of deforestation (A fair few companies now fly all the equipment to the site if there's a chance of this, but again, depends on the regulatory regime).

Problem is the batteries WILL need replacing at some point no matter how well you look after them. Once they get near the end of the guaranteed period you will never be able to sell it, because the bill is huge (currently, it will probably get cheaper). The equivalent to buying a whole brand new engine every X years.

We haven't really seen the full life cycle yet. There aren't enough around and they haven't been around long enough. Though some of the batteries in older Priuses are started to brick.

If you can find a decent example of Toyota’s debut petrol-electric car, the main issue is the hybrid system’s battery life. The lifespan of those Ni‑MH batteries was expected to be around 10 years or 100,000 miles, which, by definition of age at least, every second-hand version will have reached in 2017. However, certain reports suggest that little battery degradation happens at all.

https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-reviews-and-research/toyota-prius-mk1-review-retro-road-test/ ?

The older Prius is around 20 years old and uses a different type of battery. According to that it seems they're still pretty good. Besides, if you buy a 20 year old vehicle you can expect some repairs!
 
We haven't really seen the full life cycle yet. There aren't enough around and they haven't been around long enough. Though some of the batteries in older Priuses are started to brick.

Not that I’m an electric vehicle advocate but isn’t that like saying some petrol/Diesel engines brick after relatively short lifespans. I don’t see why ICE cars get a free pass for premature bricked engines but the same argument is used to slate electric vehicles.

Nothing is 100% reliable.
 
Not that I’m an electric vehicle advocate but isn’t that like saying some petrol/Diesel engines brick after relatively short lifespans. I don’t see why ICE cars get a free pass for premature bricked engines but the same argument is used to slate electric vehicles.

Nothing is 100% reliable.

GOOD and well looked after engines last a long time. Unfortunately, most aren't, especially the lower end stuff :p
 
Most reports I read suggest that in typical use and with current and foreseeable technologies, an EV will need a new battery every 5 + years, at a significant cost to the owner (and the environment), perhaps £5000+.

Additionally I don't know if anyone has searched battery factories on line, but but the reports of environmental damage, caused both by the battery factories themselves, and the associated supply and disposal industries do not make for pleasant reading.

Batteries last far longer than 5 years as others have said, there are loads of stats out there now on Tesla cars, have a look online. Current projections are 10-15+ years and over 200k-300k miles which is above the average life of a car.

There isn't as much data floating about for Nissan but the 'following' is far smaller even those the sales are an order of magnitude higher.

Also have a look at the battery factories, they are often offset by huge investment in renewables to power them (particularly in the West). Oil refineries, not so much.

Prices of replacements packs are high currently, mainly because EV's are still niche, there are huge opportunities for 3rd party and re-manufactured packs like there are with car parts now. These markets have yet to even get off the ground.

There's an issue with Lithium as a whole because a majority(?) comes from the DRC, which has few controls/a stable political/domestic system to implement it. That can be worked around by supply chain management and audit which is what larger companies normally do.

I think you are getting mixed up with cobalt, lithium is available in quite a few places. The latest chemistry are basically targeted at removing cobalt from the battery, Panasonic claim to now be producing cobalt free cells (which are to be used in Tesla vehicles). The rest of the industry is lagging behind though on this and are still using using it in 'significant' proportions, LG's latest cells reportedly has 0.18kg/kwh.


Forget that side. The oil extraction is the energy source comparison between the two drivelines.

This, well refining and transport are the biggest issues.

The processing can be a bit messy, and obviously the biggest issues are the emissions once they're consumed. There are also environmental issues in less strict regimes, and issues with roads the companies build to get to pads. Often they can inadvertently open up areas that weren't previously accessible to other industries (usually illegal forestry and cattle), which is a major source of deforestation (A fair few companies now fly all the equipment to the site if there's a chance of this, but again, depends on the regulatory regime).

It takes a significant amount of energy to refine crude oil, some products like oil extracted from tar sands is huge. There are energy figures banded about by various people that it takes 5-6kwh per gallon (US) of petrol to extract, refine and transport before its used. That would give an EV a 20 miles mile advantage over an ICE far before a drop of fuel is burnt or electricity generated.

I am a little sceptical on that figure as the industry isn't transparent on its energy usage (#conspiracy), it could be more or less and a few assumptions have to be made. On the EV side there are losses from transmitting electricity over large distances and charging losses that need to be taken into account. But the myth that EV's a dirtier than ICE has been pretty widely debunked for a long time now and I think we can all agree moving the pollution out of city centres is only a good thing for human health.
 
I think you are getting mixed up with cobalt, lithium is available in quite a few places. The latest chemistry are basically targeted at removing cobalt from the battery, Panasonic claim to now be producing cobalt free cells (which are to be used in Tesla vehicles). The rest of the industry is lagging behind though on this and are still using using it in 'significant' proportions, LG's latest cells reportedly has 0.18kg/kwh.

You're right, I am.

EDIT: Panasonic aren't producing Cobalt free batteries, they have pledged to develop one. In fact their near term forecasts say they plan on using 25,000tonnes of Cobalt by the 2020s.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...tion-for-auto-batteries-sources-idUSKBN1JA26K

It takes a significant amount of energy to refine crude oil, some products like oil extracted from tar sands is huge. There are energy figures banded about by various people that it takes 5-6kwh per gallon (US) of petrol to extract, refine and transport before its used. That would give an EV a 20 miles mile advantage over an ICE far before a drop of fuel is burnt or electricity generated.

I am a little sceptical on that figure as the industry isn't transparent on its energy usage (#conspiracy), it could be more or less and a few assumptions have to be made. On the EV side there are losses from transmitting electricity over large distances and charging losses that need to be taken into account. But the myth that EV's a dirtier than ICE has been pretty widely debunked for a long time now and I think we can all agree moving the pollution out of city centres is only a good thing for human health.

Tar sands is a rather different kettle of fish to conventional (and non tar sands unconventional) oil, which is where the vast majority of hydrocarbon comes from. It's essentially open cast mining in many cases and uses a huge amount of energy.

Extraction and transporting of the majority of oil is still a pretty low energy endeavor, and in many cases is far more convenient than electrical cables.

That's not to say ICE is cleaner overall than EV, although that depends where you are. For the vast majority (outside of an area that gets its electricity almost exclusively from coal, like some US states) EV is cleaner throughout the supply chain. That's not to say there aren't ways we can make it better (for example reduced use of Cobalt).
 
One aspect I do like about EV technology is that it effectively moves control of all 'running energy' emissions to one place - the power station, and hence they become far easier to manage and control. I have seen a number of discussions stating that EV's are just as harmful for the environment as Petrol during life as they both produce emissions, petrol / diesel in burning, electricity in production. This may be true to a point, but moving the site of production to one (or perhaps several) power stations makes managing these emissions far easier, and potentially cheaper.

I do agree however that it will be interesting to see just what solutions are required in future power generation to deliver the power density and grid support, to power an entire nation of EV cars.... Nuclear power anyone?

Funnily enough, perhaps less of an issue in sunnier climates where personal solar generation is a far more economic proposition.
 
If we need nuclear power to support it, then it's defiantly not really greener :/

TBH I don't know why as an island we aren't investing in tidal power. Instead building wind farms at sea...
 
Problem is the batteries WILL need replacing at some point no matter how well you look after them. Once they get near the end of the guaranteed period you will never be able to sell it, because the bill is huge (currently, it will probably get cheaper). The equivalent to buying a whole brand new engine every X years.

We haven't really seen the full life cycle yet. There aren't enough around and they haven't been around long enough. Though some of the batteries in older Priuses are started to brick.
Same thing happens with combustion engines. It's about 10 years.
 
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