The inquests acknowledged that some fans had no tickets and that a minority were drunk but concluded that despite this, the fans were not responsible for the events that afternoon. It was a crowd management issue.
Hillsborough inquest verdict.
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The inquests acknowledged that some fans had no tickets and that a minority were drunk but concluded that despite this, the fans were not responsible for the events that afternoon. It was a crowd management issue.
Caporegime
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Which politically was the required result.
But to assume that a load of ticketless, drunk fans with a track record of rushing/crushing/violence etc had no impact at all on the result is almost unbelievable.
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Of course it was rife but from the perspective of a Stoke fan, Liverpool & Leeds were the very worst, for Man Utd it was probably somebody else and so on.
It took me two decades because of my experience & prejudices which I did explain, I watched a very informative documentary (could be more than 2 years ago) and I was swayed.
There was one major contributing factor on that day and it wasn't the usual ticketless or drunken fans, it was the bloody metal fences that had been erected and no one taking any notice to open them when people were being crushed.
If those fences hadn't been there everybody would have ended up on the pitch.
Where has the load of ticketless fans come from? The Taylor report in 1990 rubbished this. What evidence do you have to support this nonsense argument?
There has never been any evidence to support the lies the police tried to push. They were rubbished in 1990 and again recently yet we still have people pushing them.
Ok, I read your post as if you were talking about football fans in general. This is the first I've heard of any sort of Liverpool-Stoke issues too but anyway.
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Even now, it's well known that when we go on Potters holidays, Scousers come out in force to rob our houses (it may not actually happen but still a running joke).
When Liverpool were playing in the Champions League Cup there were many Facebook posts saying we were going back up to get our stuff back.
On Friday I was showing a colleague my £80 cycle lock and said "It needs 10 minutes with a plasma torch or a 3 year old Scouser with a pin" - it still runs deep for some of us
This was 30 years ago though.. Go to Camden market on a sunny sunday and see if you nudge or get nudged.
Don't think of the crowd as queuing to buy a starbucks... There were hundreds of people funnelled into a tunnel. Like an hourglass.
Have you ever tried to get into a busy london tube station during rush hour...The one in Leicester sq is quite bad.
What normally happens during rush hour as soon as those doors open.
Everyone is going to try and get on at the same time...(like the dog with the big branch and the doorway)
What happens in this picture when the train starts to move or brake. People will push on each other
You can see how close the guy with the phone is to the person infront. If someone nudged that girl in the black chances are she would push the phone guy who in turn could push the blue t shirt guy etc etc
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Indeed, which is why I said from the start that the government should just let the families of the victims of grenfell write the report for the enquiry. It will stop it dragging on any longer than needed with multiple enquiries being requested untill justice is perceived to have been done.
This was 30 years ago though.. Go to Camden market on a sunny sunday and see if you nudge or get nudged.
Don't think of the crowd as queuing to buy a starbucks... There were hundreds of people funnelled into a tunnel. Like an hourglass.
Have you ever tried to get into a busy london tube station during rush hour...The one in Leicester sq is quite bad.
What normally happens during rush hour as soon as those doors open.
Everyone is going to try and get on at the same time...(like the dog with the big branch and the doorway)
What happens in this picture when the train starts to move or brake. People will push on each other
Yes I have I've done all those things the th3 e was actually my point before I've seen them so busy people were up the stairs but no one was pushed off the platform which would take lots less force than crushing somone.
Your last point you say people push each other tryinf to force thier way on, isnt that then thier fault? Thier co cous choice to push somone to force them forward despite not knowing what's happening up front.
But that would mean the blame lies with the fans for pushing which the inquest says didn't happen.
The tube is funny though my friend won't stand anywhere but with thier back to the wall. Because theyr e gay and not from the UK, both things peoples have been pushed onto the tracks for
Even now, it's well known that when we go on Potters holidays, Scousers come out in force to rob our houses (it may not actually happen but still a running joke).
When Liverpool were playing in the Champions League Cup there were many Facebook posts saying we were going back up to get our stuff back.
On Friday I was showing a colleague my £80 cycle lock and said "It needs 10 minutes with a plasma torch or a 3 year old Scouser with a pin" - it still runs deep for some of us
Thats the same form all over though. We have the same jokes about Scousers and I live 10 miles form an L postcode.
The grenfell thing is redicoulous now. They are still putting people up in hotels at more than 1k a week when they didn't even live there.
There's 1 student who lives 4 miles away and was just visiting he's now living in a council paid for hotel after they refused to pay his rent in his shared flat so he said he couldn't go home because he was paranoid about the people he shares woth causing a fire (4 stahotel though is fine it seems)
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.da...enfell-survivors-DIDNT-live-tower-hotels.html
I know what your saying but its not the same....Imagine the platform is full, the stairs are full but the lobby has a few stragglers.. But the gates are locked (station closed) massive groups outside..100's more people. Then someone says I know lets open the gates and let all the people that are outside, inside
Also the platform analogy doesn't really work... Everyone knows if you push people on a platform someone is going on the tracks......You can see the tracks.... No-one in the tunnel could see people getting crushed
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I expect that but if you live in Ipswich they probably say the same about people who live in Norwich and don't have Scouser jokes.
Anyway, the point is I had a season ticket from around 1968 and we always had a hooligan problem with Liverpool which led me to believe that Liverpool fans were to blame for Hillsborough BUT I DON'T NOW.
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It's from the judges report on the BBC. I quoted it in my post. The inquiry accepted that there was a drunken minority and also ticketless fans who were trying to use any chance to get in.
The quote you posted was that there were a drunken minority of supporters at the match. So pretty much like every football match around the world? How have you gone from that to claiming there was loads of drunk, ticketless, violent fans? Where's the evidence of this?
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H
I guess it depends how you define a load. But the best the judge could come up with was a minority I.e less than 50% but he stopped short of saying any or just individual's.
The truth is that this as you say was common before this game and more sickeningly after this game.
More sickeningly? People have a drink at football games, then and now. Some could be classified as drunk. That doesn't mean they were ticketless and violent or were to blame in any way for the disaster as you've repeatedly claimed. Right from the Taylor report to the most recent inquests, there has never been any evidence to support the rubbish you've been posting in this thread. It was rubbish before the recent HIP report and inquest, it's sickening that you're spouting the same stuff after though.
I think more folk need to watch that documentary. None of the rank and file coppers who appear on the programme and were present on the day blame the fans at all.
They seem more annoyed at their superiors for altering their notes/statements, removing any criticism of Police procedure on the day. Quite telling, that.
They seem more annoyed at their superiors for altering their notes/statements, removing any criticism of Police procedure on the day. Quite telling, that.
Quite. A lot of it is wilful ignorance though. Scouse-bashing is quite popular in some parts of the country.
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You don't think its a fair to speculate that an element of drunkeness, violence or high spirits, led to the rush
through the narrow tunnel into the already full pens ?
If I was on a jury and such evidence was put forward I would have to consider that it was extremely relevant.
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