Should future employers be warned you were found not guilty in a rape trial??

You are mixing concepts and potentially looping back on those concepts.

You are consider/presumed innocent until proven guilty. The court/jury has the job to prove you are guilty. If they cannot do that they return a verdict of "not guilty". This is BECAUSE they are not tasked with proving you are innocent as that is already assumed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence

If we flip this thing around to where you are guilty until proven innocent we end up in the same situation but with much worse consequences to freedom. While there are situations where a court cannot, with the available evidence, prove guilt, there are also situations where a court cannot prove innocence. If you were to be presumed guilty until proven innocent you would effectively have to serve an jail sentence as guilty until you can prove you are innocent. Do YOU want to live in that world? Have you ever been accused of something you didn't do? Ever felt what that is like?
Hooray, we're getting there slowly, except that courts deal with people who are suspected of being guilty, not suspected of being innocent. Why on earth would the CPS send a person to a criminal trial who they suspect is innocent?

For a moment I thought you almost understood, but I still get the feeling that you think "not guilty" is the same "innocent".
 
That's quite a rant. But the examples given are different to the case in hand here. The person had been to trial and been found not guilty. Yet the affect of being on the report is to wreck his life... despite being found not guilty.
Lets retain some rationality here. He's not on a barring list. He may be rejected from certain sectors of employment, where this case is deemed relevant information, if his potential employer isn't prepared to take on that risk. That isn't 'wrecking his life', it's possiblly restricting his potential field of employment slightly. It sucks for him as a qualified teacher (who is so desperate to be a teacher that he was a taxi driver) but I think saying it has wrecked his life is a bit of an exaggeration.
 
That's quite a rant. But the examples given are different to the case in hand here. The person had been to trial and been found not guilty. Yet the affect of being on the report is to wreck his life... despite being found not guilty.

Found not guilty of a criminal offence.

Again how many times does this have to be stated?

A finding of not guilty at a criminal court is just that. It does not bind any other court or process dealing with the same facts but at the lower burden of proof. You may be found not guilty of assaulting your partner in the criminal court. But a family court will assess the same information at the civil standard or proof to assess who should have child custody for example and that ruling may go against you.

Civil cases and rulings can already 'ruin' someone's life in a variety of scenarios. (losing contact with children, being sued, losing a wrongful dismissal claim etc)

The cases I have given are of course varied but give a good example of the range of matters that are adjudicated at the lower burden of proof which include matters of massive significance to thoose involved.

I have yet to see anything approaching a coherent argument to say why it is not axiomatic to say that if the civil burden is used to decide whether to dismiss someone or to decide whether someone was fairly dismissed that it is not also follow that the same test is used for suitability to employ someone in a specific role in the first place.
 
Found not guilty of a criminal offence.

Again how many times does this have to be stated?

A finding of not guilty at a criminal court is just that. It does not bind any other court or process dealing with the same facts but at the lower burden of proof. You may be found not guilty of assaulting your partner in the criminal court. But a family court will assess the same information at the civil standard or proof to assess who should have child custody for example and that ruling may go against you.

Civil cases and rulings can already 'ruin' someone's life a variety of scenarios. (losing contact with children, being sued, losing a wrongful dismissal claim etc)

The cases I have given are of course varied but give a good example of the range of matters that are adjudicated at the lower burden of proof which include matters of massive significance to thoose involved.

I have yet to see anything approaching a coherent argument to say why it is not axiomatic to say that if the civil burden is used to decide whether to dismiss someone or to decide whether someone was fairly dismissed that it is not also follow that the same test is used for suitability to employ someone in a specific role in the first place.
You can state it as many times as you like. I've clearly stated my position that I agree it currently works this way and that I am strongly of the opinion that the current process is morally wrong.

...and your reply always seems to be simply "but that's not how it works"

Your turn again...
 
You can state it as many times as you like. I've clearly stated my position that I agree it currently works this way and that I am strongly of the opinion that the current process is morally wrong.

...and your reply always seems to be simply "but that's not how it works"

Your turn again...


You propose something that's unworkable...


Either a totally unsafe and unworkable system where beyond reasonable doubt becomes the standard for every court adjudication and decision around child and vulnerable adult safety.....


or some massive, prohibitively expensive, burecratic system where by anyone who might at some point in the future make a DBS application to work with children or vulnerable adults and where their is information that they may pose a risk to thoose groups needs to have a case head by a 'panel' of judges to decide what the response to such a theoretical application should be.
 
You propose something that's unworkable...


Either a totally unsafe and unworkable system where beyond reasonable doubt becomes the standard for every court adjudication and decision around child and vulnerable adult safety.....


or some massive, prohibitively expensive, burecratic system where by anyone who might at some point in the future make a DBS application to work with children or vulnerable adults needs to have a case head by a 'panel' of judges to decide what the response to such a theoretical application should be.
...which comes back to my point that if we choose a simplified process to save time and effort then our society is placing cost over the rights of potentially innocent people.

Also the decision to include details on a CRB would obviously not be upon application. It would be at the end of each trial.
 
...which comes back to my point that if we choose a simplified process to save time and effort then our society is placing cost over the rights of potentially innocent people.

Also the decision to include details on a CRB would obviously not be upon application. It would be at the end of each trial.
Can't imagine many people found not-guilty in a criminal court would want to be raked over the coals again in a civil case to decide if they actually more likely than not did commit the crime. Especially because it would look much worse to have an official public mark against your name as being a rapist or whatever than a rather secretive Enhanced-CRB one.
 
...which comes back to my point that if we choose a simplified process to save time and effort then our society is placing cost over the rights of potentially innocent people.

Also the decision to include details on a CRB would obviously not be upon application. It would be at the end of each trial.

But a lot of the very relevant information about the risk a person may pose doesn't have to come from someone being charged.

Take some of the Huntley matters.....

Multiple cases where referrals were made for suspected sexual relationships with 13-15 year olds but individually the girls would not confirm the relationships so no further actions could be taken criminally.

Is it sensible to employ such a person to work with children on the basis you propose?
 
...

Also the decision to include details on a CRB would obviously not be upon application. It would be at the end of each trial.
But the decision whether a case appears on the enhanced dbs checks is dependent on the job itself and whether it is relevant. Your process would be unworkable as you'd have to go through a huuuuuuge list of potential jobs and decide which ones it was or wasn't relevant to.
 
Can't imagine many people found not-guilty in a criminal court would want to be raked over the coals again in a civil case to decide if they actually more likely than not did commit the crime. Especially because it would look much worse to have an official public mark against your name as being a rapist or whatever than a rather secretive Enhanced-CRB one.
The prosecution would have to ask for it to be included.

But a lot of the very relevant information about the risk a person may pose doesn't have to come from someone being charged.

Take some of the Huntley matters.....

Multiple cases where referrals were made for suspected sexual relationships with 13-15 year olds but individually the girls would not confirm the relationships so no further actions could be taken criminally.

Is it sensible to employ such a person to work with children on the bases you propose?
We've discussed the Huntley case multiple times and my response is always the same... We should not be using one extreme, very emotive, case to set our principles. Doing so leads to poor decisions because of emotion.
 
We've discussed the Huntley case multiple times and my response is always the same... We should not be using one extreme, very emotive, case to set our principles. Doing so leads to poor decisions because of emotion.

Not because you don't have any answers when it comes to this point?
 
But the decision whether a case appears on the enhanced dbs checks is dependent on the job itself and whether it is relevant. Your process would be unworkable as you'd have to go through a huuuuuuge list of potential jobs and decide which ones it was or wasn't relevant to.

Presumably jobs jobs be in a small number of categories. But regardless we should be trying to protect innocent people rather than simply run roughshod over them because not doing so is difficult.
Not because you don't have any answers when it comes to this point?
I've given my answer. Extreme emotive cases should not dictate principles.
 
The prosecution would have to ask for it to be included.
Likely to be costly and, therefore, not requested unless the individual was likely to be working with kids etc. So the OP case with him being a taxi driver at the time, before later switching to teaching, wouldn't be included.

We've discussed the Huntley case multiple times and my response is always the same... We should not be using one extreme, very emotive, case to set our principles. Doing so leads to poor decisions because of emotion.
Same applies to all those football coaches currently being sent down for historic offences. Commonly, it's reported that people did go to the police, but limited evidence meant charges weren't able to be brought. Such multiple reports could have resulted in appearance on enhanced-CRBs if such a system had been in place.

I'd imagine there are plenty of other examples.
 
Likely to be costly and, therefore, not requested unless the individual was likely to be working with kids etc. So the OP case with him being a taxi driver at the time, before later switching to teaching, wouldn't be included.


Same applies to all those football coaches currently being sent down for historic offences. Commonly, it's reported that people did go to the police, but limited evidence meant charges weren't able to be brought. Such multiple reports could have resulted in appearance on enhanced-CRBs if such a system had been in place.

I'd imagine there are plenty of other examples.
Yes it could be included on the CRB... If you are also prepared for innocent people to be included on there.

Would you be happy for your own name to be included because of a false accusation?
 
Presumably jobs jobs be in a small number of categories. But regardless we should be trying to protect innocent people rather than simply run roughshod over them because not doing so is difficult.
Equally, imo, we should be protecting vulnerable innocent people from potentially preventable exposure to sex offenders, rather than simply run roughshod over them because its unfair to a few individuals that they can't get the specific job they want.

It's all a question of the lesser evil as there is no practical way to be fair to both.

Personally I'd rather impinge on someone's right to have the job they want versus someone's right to not be exposed to potential 'known' sex offenders.
 
Equally, imo, we should be protecting vulnerable innocent people from potentially preventable exposure to sex offenders, rather than simply run roughshod over them because its unfair to a few individuals that they can't get the specific job they want.

It's all a question of the lesser evil as there is no practical way to be fair to both.

Personally I'd rather impinge on someone's right to have the job they want versus someone's right to not be exposed to potential 'known' sex offenders.
Would you be OK if the police wanted to put your name on there because of an accusation you knew to be completely made up?
 
Yes it could be included on the CRB... If you are also prepared for innocent people to be included on there.

Would you be happy for your own name to be included because of a false accusation?
Would you be happy for a family member to be sexually assaulted by someone known to the police who was simply not convicted due to a lack of evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt? The emotive questions work both ways.
 
Would you be happy for a family member to be sexually assaulted by someone known to the police who was simply not convicted due to a lack of evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt? The emotive questions work both ways.

Can't help but notice you didn't answer his question.
 
Would you be OK if the police wanted to put your name on there because of an accusation you knew to be completely made up?
No I wouldn't be happy personally but I've already explained that what I would personally feel in that situation is not necessarily what the law should be based on. Society as a whole should take precedence, as catering to the individual circumstances all the time would leave the law tied up in knots.
 
Would you be happy for a family member to be sexually assaulted by someone known to the police who was simply not convicted due to a lack of evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt? The emotive questions work both ways.
I would be extremely angry about it. But personally I would prefer innocent people not be falsely named and for other controls to be put in place for vulnerable people.

Your statement assumes there are no other options.

Other options, for example, could include vulnerable people not being in the presence of only one person unless there is CCTV, etc. That's just off the top of my head. But again it would be difficult and expensive. So it comes back to choosing cost over innocent people.
 
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