• Competitor rules

    Please remember that any mention of competitors, hinting at competitors or offering to provide details of competitors will result in an account suspension. The full rules can be found under the 'Terms and Rules' link in the bottom right corner of your screen. Just don't mention competitors in any way, shape or form and you'll be OK.

GlobalFoundries puts 7nm on indefinite hold

https://www.bit-tech.net/news/tech/cpus/globalfoundries-puts-7nm-on-indefinite-hold/1/

Wasn't their exclusive deal with GloFo meant to come to an end next year?

AMD is not affected as since May have announced that it will use TSMC for 7nm
And the initial rumour that Apple and AMD have taken over more than 90% of the TSMC capacity seems is true.
That would push Nvidia for 7nm product way back into 2020.

The only issue is Zen 5 that was destined for 3nm GloFo process for 2023.
 
And the initial rumour that Apple and AMD have taken over more than 90% of the TSMC capacity seems is true.

People push out that line every time there is a node change and its never true - sure Apple does take up a lot of upfront production reducing supply to pretty much everyone else.
 
nVidia purely use TSMC, and I'm sure would've booked their allocation by now for sure (done years in advance usually).

Between GeForce and industry products nVidia's order book with TSMC is huge - nVidia Q2 2018 revenue was ~3.12bn versus something like 1.76bn or so for AMD - they aren't going to put a customer like that to the back of the queue - I dunno what these people are smoking that keep coming up with these suggestions every time there is a node change.

EDIT: Oh I got the numbers right.
 
nVidia purely use TSMC, and I'm sure would've booked their allocation by now for sure (done years in advance usually). Doubt this will affect them, I'm expecting 7nm cards from them in 2020.

RTX20xx are made partially by TSMC and also by Samsung.
 
Got a link to that man? I know they're producing the GDDR6 for them.

There are rumours nVidia is using a Korean fab for some of the Turing line but seems an odd one as they are using a specially tuned performance track at TSMC so I can't imagine they can just take the design elsewhere without major reworking - IIRC the suggestion was for one of the high end variants of the core but it would make more sense if they'd redone/designed one of the lower end variants for production elsewhere (also you don't just casually work up to being able to produce cores larger than around 600mm2 with mature yields).
 
There are rumours nVidia is using a Korean fab for some of the Turing line but seems an odd one as they are using a specially tuned performance track at TSMC so I can't imagine they can just take the design elsewhere without major reworking - IIRC the suggestion was for one of the high end variants of the core but it would make more sense if they'd redone/designed one of the lower end variants for production elsewhere (also you don't just casually work up to being able to produce cores larger than around 600mm2 with mature yields).

Ahhh ok thanks, be nice if a little more info was leaked about that at some point :)
 
You worry this will effect AMD negatively as they've now got all their eggs in one basket - TSMC's 7nm - if this ***ks up they will face hugely damaging delays.

7nm Vega, Navi, Ryzen 3000-series, EPYC next-gen and TR3 will all be using TSMC's 7nm. Question is, will they now have to juggle around what products take priority as likely TSMC can't produce enough chips for multiple products of theirs at the same time in huge volumes.
 
TSMC is as good a bet as any - they seem reasonably able to ramp to demand so at worst might see some short delays.
 
You worry this will effect AMD negatively as they've now got all their eggs in one basket - TSMC's 7nm - if this ***ks up they will face hugely damaging delays.

7nm Vega, Navi, Ryzen 3000-series, EPYC next-gen and TR3 will all be using TSMC's 7nm. Question is, will they now have to juggle around what products take priority as likely TSMC can't produce enough chips for multiple products of theirs at the same time in huge volumes.


I suspect that they might well try to make a product at Samsung at some point to get some experience working with, taping out with and securing a supply chain when working through Samsung. That way if TSMC run into issues they'll be more ready to work with Samsung and move over other products.

I'm hoping that depending on if Samsung's process is faster or lower power AMD tape out something that fits those characteristics so they have a second source and experience of the shipping node and it would mean IP blocks are ready and working. IE if Samsung is more efficient taping out an APU on Samsung means they can offer a more efficient lower power APU variant but it also means they've got a taped out product with the CCX, the pci-e, the memory controller, etc, all taped out and worked out the kinks so if TSMC have an issue they could much more quickly tape out a bigger cpu there.


Between GeForce and industry products nVidia's order book with TSMC is huge - nVidia Q2 2018 revenue was ~3.12bn versus something like 1.76bn or so for AMD - they aren't going to put a customer like that to the back of the queue - I dunno what these people are smoking that keep coming up with these suggestions every time there is a node change.

EDIT: Oh I got the numbers right.

Revenue is absolutely irrelevant here. If you make 500 chips and sell them for $10k profit a pop or make 10k chips and sell them for $500 profit a pop the revenue would be the same but TSMC would be making either 500 or 10k chips, 10k is worth more to them.

With consoles, gpus, EPYC, Ryzen and APU all gaining market share AMDs volume is increasing dramatically. TSMC will put whoever is worth more profit to TSMC first, they don't give a damn which company makes more profit for themselves.
 
Revenue is absolutely irrelevant here. If you make 500 chips and sell them for $10k profit a pop or make 10k chips and sell them for $500 profit a pop the revenue would be the same but TSMC would be making either 500 or 10k chips, 10k is worth more to them.

With consoles, gpus, EPYC, Ryzen and APU all gaining market share AMDs volume is increasing dramatically. TSMC will put whoever is worth more profit to TSMC first, they don't give a damn which company makes more profit for themselves.

There isn't (that I'm aware of) current data for the numbers of units shipped - which would give some idea as to the volume of wafers being produced for each company it is also hard to factor in some of the commercial contracts, etc. so I used revenue to give comparative size - going back to like 2015-2017 doesn't fairly accommodate things like Ryzen sales.
 
It's really weird finding total units shipped, it seems to be almost ignored. Stock market type articles, financial results are always market share and finding graphs that actually talk about units shipped is not impossible, but close to impossible to find anything relevant.

AS you say with Zen sales growth in all the segments, increased laptop, increased OEM, huge increase in retail sales to end users numbers from even a year ago aren't going to tell a particularly good picture for total units.

With consoles, all cpu and all future gpus being made at TSMC I wouldn't be surprised if they push past Nvidia in volume in the next year even if they maybe aren't already larger in volume. Also TSMC will be thinking about the volume AMD will grow to and their expected business in the next few years. If Intel struggles to get 10nm by the end of next year (which personally I think is quite likely) and with larger server chips coming way after that anyway, the potential volume AMD can capture will represent a lot of business for TSMC.

It's a strange industry, I suspect now that Global have known this for some time but also knew announcing earlier would have hit AMD hard. Announcing after it became clear AMD was going with TSMC to start 7nm anyway makes it an almost non issue.

I'm genuinely wondering if there won't be some big stories in the near future on Global anyway. Maybe refurbish Dresden for their specialised stuff, they've focused on SOI over there anyway, and sell Malta to TSMC or Samsung. THe real value in AMD production was the approval for Fab 8 in Malta and the site had preapproval for two more fabs and it's said to be a truly excellent fab technologically and the site is brilliant with quite a lot of tax incentives for being there.

SO the same still holds true, to more 60-80k wafer a month fabs having not only pre-approval but site and everything already basically ready for the expansions. If TSMC suddenly decide they want to expand further with Global stepping out of high end processes, Malta is a pretty good shortcut to that. One fab straight away going 7nm with new equipment and two more could be built in a few years.
 
If Intel struggles to get 10nm by the end of next year (which personally I think is quite likely) and with larger server chips coming way after that anyway, the potential volume AMD can capture will represent a lot of business for TSMC.

Despite claims otherwise around a year ago it seems increasingly apparent that Intel is pretty much screwed without EUV which means realistically they won't even be in risk production (for anything other than maybe very select products) until end of H1 2019 assuming it even all works.

I'm surprised at this point they've not gone cap in hand to TSMC for CPU production as a couple of people basically lied about where they were (and have now lost their jobs) which must have set them back a lot more than they are letting on.
 
Intel making chips at TSMC makes sense for them, but not really for TSMC, if they can already fill out every wafer possible for existing customers who compete with Intel they have little reason to help Intel both because it won't make them more money and it will make life more difficult for all their long term partners who with more competitive chips will steal sales from Intel. Also Intel have repeatedly tried (and failed) to bring on customers and compete as a foundry business (more to utilise their under utilised capacity than to be a genuine player though).

Intel are just in such a weird place, if 10nm can't work they have a bunch of insanely expensive fabs, billions in R&D and AMD without any of that cost is producing 7nm pretty much a year before they can produce something similar.

They still have the new completely unused 8billion fab... wherever they built it, being wasted. It was intended for 14nm but they struggled to fill capacity at other fabs so never spent the money to fill it with equipment as it wasn't worth it. They planned to fill it with 10nm equipment when 10nm was ready..... and that has meant it sits there even longer waiting to be used.

What senior guy at Intel can say, you know that 8 billion fab we built they decided to only use with the new process.... well we want to go use TSMC instead. Even if it's the right decision that's the kind of thing no one wants to say and no board member wants to hear.

You can't proclaim to be the best foundry company in the business, with the best nodes offering incomparable chips then next generation start using your rival for major production of your most important chips. They do actually use TSMC as they made modems there for quite a while though the latest 5g stuff is supposed to be being made on Intel 14nm. It's one thing to make a special RF based chip on a process better optimised for RF, it's another to make basically your entire CPU lineup at TSMC, the very chips your industry leading process is supposed to do better.

But again, even if they wanted to, even if someone brought that to the board, at this point why would TSMC do it.

At this point Intel's best shot might be the Global 14nm plan. As in, licence 7nm off TSMC or global and fill up that unused fab with equipment and pay through the teeth to have TSMC guys come and get it ramped up asap. Then pay them 5billion to keep the deal silent and just say they got it working finally :p

In terms of faith I have in Intel's current 10nm claims, lol. As you say I think end of 1h, if there are realistic rumours that Intel have finally got okay yields going then I can just about believe a production ramp could have half decent volume moving into early 2020, but until they get something going and there are rumours of decent enough yields for a full ramp then everything is just a guess/best hope for them. If end of h1 or early h2 start bringing rumours of more issues then that xmas 2019 date will slip yet again.
 
if they can already fill out every wafer possible for existing customers who compete with Intel they have little reason to help Intel

TSMC is all about growth at the moment and have the flexibility and experience foundry wise to manage that - end of the day money is money. Intel have been in discussions with TSMC for a load of (next gen) smaller embedded controllers, etc. but from what I can see there doesn't seem to be much progress there currently - Intel seem to have massive structural (people wise) issues ongoing.
 
On the AMD vs Intel 7nm volume debate, I would assume that AMD will have a bigger order from TSMC compared to Nvidia. With Nvidia it's just 7nm next-gen GPU chips they need ramping. With AMD it's Ryzen desktop, Ryzen mobile (APUs), EPYC and Vega 7nm they now need TSMC to produce, so a higher volume of chips you'd guess.

What I'm interested in is whether TSMC's Ryzen 3000-series will be even stronger comparatively to Intel than GloFo's Ryzen 1000 and 2000 series, which was great but as we know, clocks slightly lower than Intel's Skylake +++++ CPUs (still, didn't stop the 2700X being the best high-end all-around non-HEDT CPU on the market imo. And yes, that includes the 8700K).
 
On the AMD vs Intel 7nm volume debate, I would assume that AMD will have a bigger order from TSMC compared to Nvidia. With Nvidia it's just 7nm next-gen GPU chips they need ramping. With AMD it's Ryzen desktop, Ryzen mobile (APUs), EPYC and Vega 7nm they now need TSMC to produce, so a higher volume of chips you'd guess.

What I'm interested in is whether TSMC's Ryzen 3000-series will be even stronger comparatively to Intel than GloFo's Ryzen 1000 and 2000 series, which was great but as we know, clocks slightly lower than Intel's Skylake +++++ CPUs (still, didn't stop the 2700X being the best high-end all-around non-HEDT CPU on the market imo. And yes, that includes the 8700K).

Unfortunately Ryzen sales, etc. aren't well represented in the current numbers but units shipped nVidia was selling per month through 2017 not far below what AMD sold in total CPU (all processors) wise for the year (that will be less true with 2018 numbers in there) and with nVidia's market dominance AMD's GPU sales don't massively change the picture. Don't forget that nVidia does all the DRIVE stuff, etc. as well so Orin will probably be on 7nm.
 
Back
Top Bottom