Driving pet hates...

[Edinho]

The ones that slow down, move right, start to make a right turn, THEN indicate. Presumably they don't even bother checking mirrors. eff'ing clueless.

 

[ICDP]

Pet hates. People not understanding how traffic light junctions work.

The red light applies to those entering the junction, not those in it. Once you pass the white line you should complete your manouver through the junction unless doing so would cause an accident.

Tonight on the way home I went through a green, but go stopped about 4/5 the way across the junction in the traffic. In the minute or so I was sat the traffic to my right moved off on their green. A 4x4 drives right up to my front wing and when the traffic moved he tried to force his way in. I seen it coming, but I moved forward anyway to see what he would do. He braked, then look up at the traffic lights as much to say, "Yours is red."

"That's not my light anymore mate and you are obliged to yield to traffic already on the carriageway."

But I let him in anyway, but cut the next women who tried the same off.

It's not the first time and it won't be the last. Again, the red light only applies to the white line legally defining the junction. Once past that you should complete your manuever thorugh the junction unless it would cause an accident.

In real world though if you are just over the line, you would wait with the red as it makes sense, but not when you are nearly through the junction. Waiting in the middle of junctions causes far more problems, like the fact I was physically blocking a whole other lane of traffic if I didn't move and the junction would have grid locked up.

EDIT: There is also confusion about repeater lights on the other side of the junction. Often you get lights at the line, but lights on the other side. These are repeater lights, they are for when you are first in the queue and can't see the light now beside you. They have been called into question for causing confusion before, but you are 100% allowed to EXIT a junction under a red. Obviously you need to be careful of pedestrian crossings, but it is perfectly acceptible to approach the crossing, wait on pedestrians and then proceed whether it's red or green.

My driving pet hate is people who think they know the highway code, before demonstrating their ignorance by making up rules that a quick Google proves wrong.

Ironically despite the comment in the first line of your post, your subsequent anecdote indicates it is in fact you who does not understand how traffic light junctions work. You entered a junction under a green light while the traffic situation prevented you from clearing the junction safely. This is in direct contravention of the highway code.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/using-the-road-159-to-203

Highway Code Rule 176
You MUST NOT move forward over the white line when the red light is showing. Only go forward when the traffic lights are green if there is room for you to clear the junction safely or you are taking up a position to turn right. If the traffic lights are not working, treat the situation as you would an unmarked junction and proceed with great care.

The fact you entered a traffic light junction without your exit being clear is in direct violation of the highway code.

 

[PaulCa]

I think you need to live in the real world.

The traffic is flowing at 40 mph. Do I stop and wait for the car ahead to cover the 70 odd feet, then set off?

Also only the rule about the red is a rule, the remainder is guidance.

 

[ICDP]

I think you need to live in the real world.

The traffic is flowing at 40 mph. Do I stop and wait for the car ahead to cover the 70 odd feet, then set off?

Also only the rule about the red is a rule, the remainder is guidance.

I do live in the real world and it's a world where sensible people know the highway code is only guidance, or it would be called the highway law.

Let's now work on your newly shared facts on this scenario. By your own statement this junction was 70 odd feet, you entered the junction at 40 mph and you stopped 4/5ths of the way across this junction.

• 40mph = 58.7ft traveled per second.
  
• 4/5ths of 70 odd feet (assume 73ft) = 58.4ft. (coincidence?)

So you managed to spot the stopped traffic ahead, think AND react to stop your car in less than a second. These numbers (provided by you) show you were driving extremely dangerously in a heavy traffic situation because you stopped with literally, inches to spare. No way that maneuver was done in a controlled and safe fashion. Wow, I am impressed you managed not to kill someone, or yourself for that matter.

Your original post stated nothing about traffic speeds, nor the size of the junction. Just that you drove through a green light, then had to stop in traffic 4/5ths of the way across the junction because your exit wasn't clear. You posted with the belief that you had right of way and I posted definitive proof that this was an erroneous assumption. The source of your "mythical right of way" is purely in your head and contrary to the clear best practice guidelines printed in the highway code. Despite your protestations about "only guidance", the highway code is a better and more easily accessible source of driving practices than the demonstrably erroneous info contained in your head.

A decent modern car driving at 40 MPH will take about 40-50 ft to do an emergency stop. But only as long as the car is in perfect condition, the weather and road surface are perfect, and the driver is pre alerted to be ready to stop. None of this takes into account thinking and reaction times let alone other distractions and factors.

The classy and intelligent reaction would be a simple "well you learn something new every day, thanks for correcting my mistake". You have been proven wrong and were clearly driving dangerously. But you go right on ahead and dig deeper there sunshine.

 

[jpaul]

The traffic is flowing at 40 mph. Do I stop and wait for the car ahead to cover the 70 odd feet, then set off?

agree this is the pragmatic approach ...
I encounter exactly the same regularly in rush hour, do you proceed straight across (non-box) junction, unable to exit, but not blocking traffic turning left across you, or wait, let lights change, and allow folks from the left to do the same ? loosing your turn in the rush hour game

I know the highway code is only guidance, the clue is in the name, or it would be called the highway law.

so can you explain ... is there no distinction between proceeding across a box junction when you can't leave and this, the non-box scenario ?
I assume it is a faithful copy of the highway code, but both employ the words MUST NOT,
but I thought a box was an offence versus non-box. ?
Do the hyper-links in the document explain what offences(fines) could be committed for box/non-box ..genuine question ..

 

[PaulCa]

I do live in the real world and it's a world where sensible people know the highway code is only guidance, or it would be called the highway law.

The road traffic act is the law. You will note the highway code contains portions of it. The portions of the highway code that refer to the law are clearly marked and usually state the RTA they refer to. This is why portions say "YOU MUST" and some say, "you should" and some just say it's adviced or similar wording.

I don't know exactly how long the junction is, it's a large junction on dual carriageway. The 70 feet and 40mph were broad estimates. But it seems I have antagonised an internet pedant.
I was not the only one who got stopped.
Traffic was slowing on the other side of the junction, so I was already slowing through it. The fact that traffic got stopped before I could clear the junction completely was just an unfortunate matter of timing. It was on the cusp. The car behind did stop, slightly over the line though.

Also. While in the junction on the main carriage way I do have priority. The merging traffic is obliged to yield to those already on the main road. The red light, the subject of the gist of my post do NOT refer to me at that point, but the merger trying to force his way in tried to indicate that it did. Someday he will cause an accident with that belief.

To counter you in a similarly pedantic way, if I may, nobody has right of way on the road, the concept was deprecated quite a while ago.

Here is the junction, I was traveling north east along the main carriageway. I came to a stop about 1 car length back from the island, just enough room for someone from "Sullivan place" to try and force his way through in front.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.6414313,-5.8386123,44m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

That junction is small enough and simple enough there should be no excuse for not reading the traffic well enough to not need to stop in it.
You probably need to drop back a bit from the car in front to improve your visibility if you cannot judge if you will clear that junction or not.

The problem however is typically peer pressure to drive badly in those sorts if situation, driving too close, too fast and going even if the exit isn't clear.

Its survival of the fittest, particularly when its busy, those willing to break most laws (or guidance) will tend to "win"

 

[jpaul]

So - new pet hate - why is the highway code ambiguous in respect of above, it is not surpsiing driving standard is poor

You MUST NOT move forward over the white line when the red light is showing. Only go forward when the traffic lights are green if there is room for you to clear the junction safely or you are taking up a position to turn right. If the traffic lights are not working, treat the situation as you would an unmarked junction and proceed with great care.

implication is must not go forward on green if junction is not clear.

In comparison I just looked at French law - you get a 135euro/4th level fine Article R415-2

Every driver must enter an intersection only if his vehicle is not likely to be immobilized
and to prevent the passage of vehicles traveling on other tracks. In particular, a driver
not engage in an intersection of roads in case of report, by the driver of one of the vehicles

some degree of leniancy with respect to if it was not deliberate and avoidable

Napoleon had it (mostly) right

[edit: yes i know highway code is not the law .. but it should clearly communicate it]

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

I don't think there is anything ambiguous about the UK law, go if you have an exit, don't if you don't

BUT, thats all well in theory, where it falls down is in practice with crowded roads. Sometimes its very hard to follow the rules, because if you do so, some other numpty will take that as an opportunity to take the wrong action to get in front of you or something.

Actually remembered one of my big pet hates, particularly relevant to cities/big towns. Signage that is only displayed by painting it on the road, usually a few cars lengths back from complicated junctions. Locals don't need to know, they already learn't it, but as a visitor you do. They are normally obscured by traffic, and by the time you find your in the wrong lane its normally a nightmare to get into the one you need, people normally assume your a jerk and trying to skip cars etc.

Plenty of occasions I have had sat navs get me into the wrong lane because someone has changed the lane designations and the sat navs are either out of date or were just wrong to start with.

Paint the damn markings well back from the junctions you mofos

 

[Yaayuh!]

Less driving, more passenger annoying observation.

Car has climate control, driver has A/C turned off and only turns it on to cool the car down when hot, then turns off again, then on, then off etc.

 

[PaulCa]

That junction is small enough and simple enough there should be no excuse for not reading the traffic well enough to not need to stop in it.
You probably need to drop back a bit from the car in front to improve your visibility if you cannot judge if you will clear that junction or not.

The problem however is typically peer pressure to drive badly in those sorts if situation, driving too close, too fast and going even if the exit isn't clear.

Its survival of the fittest, particularly when its busy, those willing to break most laws (or guidance) will tend to "win"

Find your grand mother and teach her to suck eggs if you please.

I am well aware of how to drive.

I am also sure that you must get every single moment of your driving completely perfect and never find yourself in undesirable situations.

I am so sure you are fully aware of the situation I was in and the traffic flows and characters I was presented with so you can judge so well.

Less driving, more passenger annoying observation.

Car has climate control, driver has A/C turned off and only turns it on to cool the car down when hot, then turns off again, then on, then off etc.

... and then no doubt complains that the car windows fog up.

So - new pet hate - why is the highway code ambiguous in respect of above, it is not surpsiing driving standard is poor
implication is must not go forward on green if junction is not clear.

In comparison I just looked at French law - you get a 135euro/4th level fine Article R415-2


some degree of leniancy with respect to if it was not deliberate and avoidable

Napoleon had it (mostly) right

[edit: yes i know highway code is not the law .. but it should clearly communicate it]

There is a full stop. The "MUST NOT" is law. The rest of the statement is advisory. You can be prosecuted for passing through a red light. You will not be prosecuted for stopping in the middle of a junction, unless you did so deliberately and in a dangerous way.

On fast flowing roads with junctions and a green light, it is simply not practical to wait until the junction is clear. To do so, you would need at least the junction length plus your stopping distance between you and the car in front. In other places the highway suggests 2 seconds, which isn't enough. If you keep slamming on the brakes at green lights you WILL 100% gauranteed get rear ended and the insurance company will find you at least partly at fault. If you do it in front of a police car they will pull you over for it. Saying, "I wanted to wait for the car in front to clear the junction" and they will probably make your life really difficult for being cheeky.

In my case, what I should have noticed was the next junction was red (but it's severly hundred yards ahead) and that traffic ahead was compressing. But, these things happen. Even in this situation, slamming on the anchors to stop once I did notice tihs might well have got me rear ended. People generally do not expect you to slam the brakes on for a green light.

 

[Yaayuh!]

... and then no doubt complains that the car windows fog up.

Yep!

 

[jpaul]

Plenty of occasions I have had sat navs get me into the wrong lane because someone has changed the lane designations and the sat navs are either out of date or were just wrong to start with.

..R4 programme yesterday about peoples increasing trust in 'AI', if AP had not alreday received enough criticism, which referenceed this story
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/driver-led-to-cliff-edge-by-sat-nav//

There is a full stop. The "MUST NOT" is law. The rest of the statement is advisory. You can be prosecuted for passing through a red light. You will not be prosecuted for stopping in the middle of a junction, unless you did so deliberately and in a dangerous way.

if you compare

Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see ‘Road markings’). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.

with
Rule 176

You MUST NOT move forward over the white line when the red light is showing. Only go forward when the traffic lights are green if there is room for you to clear the junction safely or you are taking up a position to turn right. If the traffic lights are not working, treat the situation as you would an unmarked junction and proceed with great care.

irrespective of full stop, the MUST have is not revoked in the following sentenced of 176, just the word 'only' which does not reduce 'MUST HAVE's' weight, should say 'best practice' or 'recommended' to qualify 2nd sentence .... campaign for clear english ? nonenglish speakers and me, need to understand this.

For the box rule, in comparison, the sentence starting however, is less ambiguous, in showing the 'MUST HAVE' has an exception.

 

[PaulCa]

I believe that is the point however. Sentences starting or including MUST NOT are rules/law. Sentences not starting with or containing MUST NOT are advisory.

Similarly a comment about lanes previously where people were using the wrong lane. There are specific markings and signs for "LEFT ONLY" for example. If the lane is simply marked with an arrow then it is not a requirement, just guidance. For it to be a requirement it has to be enforced with an ONLY, printed on the road or on the sign. eg. "LEFT ONLY". If it is instead a sign that says LEFT FOR x, y or a simple arrow on the road, you 'can' technically use that lane for something different. You need to understand the risks of doing so, in that it might confuse others and cause conflicts.

You comment about ambiguity is relevant, but I recall reading articles explaining why the concept of "Right of way" was removed. It basically accepted the fact that the roads are ambigous by nature as is the highway code. The concept of "Right of way" places too much risk into the hands of interpretation and difference within that interpretation. If both parties believe they have "Right of way" there will be conflict and potential accident. Changing the wording to "Priority" opens the decision and places more emphasis on working together on the roads. You may have "priority", but it might be more sense to yield that priority to someone else to make traffic flow safer and easier.

 

[TallPaul_S]

Less driving, more passenger annoying observation.

Car has climate control, driver has A/C turned off and only turns it on to cool the car down when hot, then turns off again, then on, then off etc.

Why!!!?!?! Climate control is one of the best inventions for the car, going back to manual heater controls (even with AC) is a right pain - too cold, turn up the heat a little, ahh now I'm too hot, turn down the air flow, nope too cold now and the windows are steaming up... Climate control - Set at 21 degrees, AC on and forget...

My pet hate, coming from biking is people who straight line roundabouts. 2 lanes entering the roundabout, 2 lanes on and then 2 lanes exiting, lane 1 to lane 2 to lane 1... inevitably when I would have been on their inside*

*I don't risk being alongside anything on a roundabout on a motorbike, people just don't bother/are too lazy to look.


Oh and another one: I'm driving a small van. I can't see eff all in my blind spots (no blind spot mirrors) and checking them properly requires me to lean forward by about 2ft right over the wheel and look over my shoulder. So yes, please, match my CC set 72mph perfectly and sit RIGHT in my blind spot for about a minute solid so you're basically invisible to me... If you're going to overtake, then get on with it!

 

[Yaayuh!]

Why!!!?!?! Climate control is one of the best inventions for the car, going back to manual heater controls (even with AC) is a right pain - too cold, turn up the heat a little, ahh now I'm too hot, turn down the air flow, nope too cold now and the windows are steaming up... Climate control - Set at 21 degrees, AC on and forget...

I honestly don't know. I've given up lol.

 

[PaulCa]

Why!!!?!?! Climate control is one of the best inventions for the car, going back to manual heater controls (even with AC) is a right pain - too cold, turn up the heat a little, ahh now I'm too hot, turn down the air flow, nope too cold now and the windows are steaming up... Climate control - Set at 21 degrees, AC on and forget...

Yep.

My pet hate, coming from biking is people who straight line roundabouts. 2 lanes entering the roundabout, 2 lanes on and then 2 lanes exiting, lane 1 to lane 2 to lane 1... inevitably when I would have been on their inside*

Nothing technically illegal in doing this, if done safely. Not unless the lane dividing line is a solid one. However, I grant you that some people do it without paying the slightest bit of attention for others.

There used to be a section in the highway codes on roundabout lane discipline that had a phrase something like, "If the roundabout is clear, navigate it as is convenient to you", but they later removed it, but I took this to mean you could straight line it if it's empty and safe to do so.

To be honest I still do this if it's empty, it's safe and there is no conflicts. Following around the outside lane seems a bit stupid really.

*I don't risk being alongside anything on a roundabout on a motorbike, people just don't bother/are too lazy to look.

Agreed. Wait behind until you can accelerate and pass them. Go from their mirror to their frontal sight as quick as possible, but even then be prepared for them to switch lanes into you. You are invisible after all.

 

[TallPaul_S]

Agreed - if there's no-one else about then no problem at all. It's like 'if a tree falls in the woods when there's no-one around, does it make a sound?' or 'if you straight line a roundabout when no-one is there to see/be affected, who the hell cares?'

When I'm on a motorbike, 30ft behind the car however...

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Why!!!?!?! Climate control is one of the best inventions for the car, going back to manual heater controls (even with AC) is a right pain - too cold, turn up the heat a little, ahh now I'm too hot, turn down the air flow, nope too cold now and the windows are steaming up... Climate control - Set at 21 degrees, AC on and forget...

Interesting because I when I bought my last car went for Ac as opposed to climate.
My last 3 or 4 cars have had climate in them and annoyed me. I never found just set to x gave me what I wanted. I would still get steam ups, mini was a nightmare as it would drop fan speed really low on climate till engine warmed up if cold outside, it did crazy things, like deciding the engine was warm enough and as it was cooler inside then temp i had set would go to 80% fan etc

Now don't get me wrong I have to tweak a few knobs now, in the winter I turn to hottest, turn fan low and Ac is on. When its warmed up a bit, about a mile, I turn the fan up to around 40%. Then when its warm enough in the car I turn fan down a smidge, and temp to around half. In the summer I tend to just moderate the temp with the fan speed.

My old 5 series I found on long trips I was getting cold if its cold outside. Temp to 21, freezing. No idea where the sensor(s) were but it definately didn't feel like a comfortable 21 in the cabin. This is way easier to control with a couple of manual dials

Also I find I dont really care what the temperature is inside the car, I want to feel comfortable. 21 in the summer if the sun is on me is too hot, 21 in the winter if its proper cold outside is too cold as the heat is being sucked out of the window.

Turning the AC on and off I don't get, can only assume they think its saving money?

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

..R4 programme yesterday about peoples increasing trust in 'AI', if AP had not alreday received enough criticism, which referenceed this story
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/driver-led-to-cliff-edge-by-sat-nav//

Generally I find they are fine. Occasionally they get it wrong, but my gripe is with lane marking and painting them on the road so ****** close to the junctions. As soon as there is traffic they are obscured, and by the time you can see them... its too late!