I need to find details of the internal construction of a flat roof.

[Angilion]

My house was built ~1900. At some point later later on, an extension was added at the back to house a toilet/bathroom. It's very small, about 4m^2. It has a flat roof. The rest of the house has a pitched roof. Two, to be precise. One on the main two storey part of the house and one on the kitchen which is a single storey. It's only the tiny bathroom extension that has a flat roof.

For ~22 years this has not been a problem regarding house insurance. Insurers have deemed the size of the flat roof to be small enough to not be an obstacle to insuring the house.

That's now changed, apparently, and I've been told I won't be insured unless I can provide full details of the construction of the flat roof, specifically the materials used.

I've read the surveyor's report and that doesn't help. The tiny bathroom extension was built before I bought the house. The surveyor examined the interior and exterior of the roof (which had been refurbished prior to sale) and there's nothing unusual or of any concern there - the interior is plaster and the exterior is mineralised felt. But what's in between the interior covering of plaster and the exterior covering of mineralised felt?

I can't get information from the company that I bought the house from - it hasn't existed for ~20 years. I can't find out which company they subcontracted the roofing work to (which might or might not still exist).

I don't know when the tiny bathroom extension was originally built. It might well have been many decades ago. It's been some time since people had outside toilets. I don't know how extensive the roof refurbishing work was when it was done ~22 years ago by whoever the company I bought the house from subcontracted that job to. Maybe they rebuilt the roof completely, maybe they just recovered it.

There aren't any problems with the flat roof and I'm intending to have it replaced with a pitched roof when I've paid off my mortgage and have more spare money for having work done on my house, but I need to be insured in the meantime.

As far as I know, the insurer's concern is whether or not there is asbestos in the flat roof.

Any suggestions?

I'll rephrase that - any useful suggestions? I think that covering it in mustard wouldn't solve the problem and it doesn't have a letterbox

 

[Slade2]

Are you sure the inside of the flat roof is plasterboard? its what the potential plasterboard is mounted onto that you need to find out. I suspect it could be just a timber frame but i wouldn't recommend doing any thing with it if you suspect it might contain asbestos you will do more damage trying to find out what is under there and potentially disturbing it, after all you could find that its actually a large piece of Asbestos insulation board which can and does often look exactly like plasterboard when they have been in place for years and painted often. You could get an asbestos contractor out to take some samples and see if it is asbestos but my advise would be to go back to your insurance company and confirm what they want to know about the roof first, it would be my suspicion they are more worried about it potentially leaking than they are with it being asbestos after all most of the housing stock in this country has some asbestos in it somewhere! (apart from housing built after 2000 ofc)

 

[Angilion]

Are you sure the inside of the flat roof is plasterboard? its what the potential plasterboard is mounted onto that you need to find out. I suspect it could be just a timber frame but i wouldn't recommend doing any thing with it if you suspect it might contain asbestos you will do more damage trying to find out what is under there and potentially disturbing it, after all you could find that its actually a large piece of Asbestos insulation board which can and does often look exactly like plasterboard when they have been in place for years and painted often. You could get an asbestos contractor out to take some samples and see if it is asbestos but my advise would be to go back to your insurance company and confirm what they want to know about the roof first, it would be my suspicion they are more worried about it potentially leaking than they are with it being asbestos after all most of the housing stock in this country has some asbestos in it somewhere! (apart from housing built after 2000 ofc)

My most pressing problem is how I could "to go back to your insurance company and confirm what they want to know about the roof first". For the reasons you mention, I don't want to cut a hole in it to find out what's inside (or, more accurately, pay someone else to do so).

The visible interior surface shows no sign of of being a board of any description. It looks like a material that was applied as a paste, given some swirling patterns as was the fashion of the day and left to dry. But it must have been applied to something. Or maybe boards came with that pattern when the roof was built. I don't know. It certainly looks like plaster. My assumption is that it's a coating of plaster applied to something. It's been painted who knows how many times - I've painted it at least 3 times myself and it was freshly painted when I bought the house, so that's at least 4 coats of paint on it.

I don't really suspect it might contain asbestos (and there's no mention of the possibility in the surveyor's report from 1997), but I can't say for certain that it doesn't and that's the core problem. I can't honestly tell my insurers that I am certain that it doesn't contain asbestos and even if I was willing to lie to them (which I'm not) I couldn't provide any evidence. I simply don't know what's inside the roof, in between the interior surface of paint and the exterior surface of mineralised felt.

 

[DampCat]

Probably safest to get someone to test for asbestos before doing anything? They'll have all the kit and tools to safely determine by doing a core drill. After they've confirmed there's none there you can start cutting small holes with a hole saw (easy to replace and fill) and shoving a camera up to build a picture of the other materials.

There are specialist asbestos testing companies, it will cost you a couple hundred quid iirc but better than being uninsured.

 

[Maccapacca]

Are you guessing it's to do with asbestos or are they specifically asking? Asking if you know if there is any asbestos is a massive undertaking, it could be any part of the construction.

Sure they don't want to know the finish is and what the waterproofing is. Single layer 20 year old felt has a greater risk of failing than a grp or triple layered modern felt.

 

[rpstewart]

Is this just your current insurer wanting more information before they’ll renew? If so isn’t the simple option to shop around for another insurer who will accept the roof as is?

 

[peige]

I'd be inclined to change insurance company before cover is refused, hopefully your at renewal right now.

Its really not possible to find out how its constructed without reconstructing it. If you had to take a look i'd guess the outside edge might have maybe a soffet around it or an edge you can get off behind the gutter and remake without too much to put it right after, then you could see into the structure and make a reasonable assumption of construction.

As for the angle of why they want to know, its always about risk but of what could be anyone's guess. As flat roofs are bound to leak and could cause damage i'd guess thats one angle, asbestos could be a worry in an extension of that age but in general leaving it alone is the best policy.

 

[Lord-Jaffa]

My most pressing problem is how I could "to go back to your insurance company and confirm what they want to know about the roof first". For the reasons you mention, I don't want to cut a hole in it to find out what's inside (or, more accurately, pay someone else to do so).

The visible interior surface shows no sign of of being a board of any description. It looks like a material that was applied as a paste, given some swirling patterns as was the fashion of the day and left to dry. But it must have been applied to something. Or maybe boards came with that pattern when the roof was built. I don't know. It certainly looks like plaster. My assumption is that it's a coating of plaster applied to something. It's been painted who knows how many times - I've painted it at least 3 times myself and it was freshly painted when I bought the house, so that's at least 4 coats of paint on it.

I don't really suspect it might contain asbestos (and there's no mention of the possibility in the surveyor's report from 1997), but I can't say for certain that it doesn't and that's the core problem. I can't honestly tell my insurers that I am certain that it doesn't contain asbestos and even if I was willing to lie to them (which I'm not) I couldn't provide any evidence. I simply don't know what's inside the roof, in between the interior surface of paint and the exterior surface of mineralised felt.

Are you talking about artex? The swirling patterns I mean.

Surely some pictures would help here? It's most likely plasterboard with artex on (swirling patterns) fixed to timber joists? If there is soffits and it's of a correct age they could be asbestos (cement or insulating board). It could even be stramit board I guess?

 

[Angilion]

Are you guessing it's to do with asbestos or are they specifically asking? Asking if you know if there is any asbestos is a massive undertaking, it could be any part of the construction.

Sure they don't want to know the finish is and what the waterproofing is. Single layer 20 year old felt has a greater risk of failing than a grp or triple layered modern felt.

Some more detail:

For years, I have had house insurance through Kwik-Fit. They stopped doing house insurance and passed me on to a company called Autonet. Autonet (and I think Kwik-Fit as well) don't do the actual insuring - they're brokers, not underwriters. So I am getting information second hand, which is less than ideal.

Autonet sent me a detailed insurance document which, amongst other things, asked me to check the details and tell them if anything was incorrect. One thing was - it stated that there wasn't any flat roofing on my house. Kwik-Fit had told me that due to the extremely small size (~4m^2) of my flat roof (it's a tiny proportion of the total roof area), it wasn't an issue. Given that I was now dealing with a different company and their documents stated that there was no flat roofing at all, I phoned them to clarify the situation. The customer service person I spoke to wasn't sure (because of the extremely small size) and said they'd contact the underwriter. They phoned back the next day and said that (a) it was an issue and I would need to tell them the materials used in the construction of the flat roof and (b) the underwriter's concern was whether or not any of three materials were used for the flat roof - shingles, thatch and asbestos. Since it definitely isn't shingles or thatch, the only remaining question is asbestos.

I'm fairly aware of how much of an undertaking it is, since my workplace had some asbestos in it and the response was on a par with what I'd expect for radioactive waste or a plague. They brought in airlocks and what looked like NBC suits. There's a file at work about a foot thick detailing everything in endless detail. The cost was astronomical. Even the initial survey was a pretty big job.

Is this just your current insurer wanting more information before they’ll renew? If so isn’t the simple option to shop around for another insurer who will accept the roof as is?

I think so. It's only for a few more years - when the mortgage is paid off (~3 more years) I'm going to have the roof replaced anyway. I'd rather not have any flat roofing. It's rather less than ideal in England. I could have it done now, but I want to have the extension rebuilt to be larger and have the bath replaced with a shower at the same time I have the roof done (seems silly to have the roof done twice) and that would take more money than I have at the moment.

I'd pay a higher cost for insurance if that's what they're after. Either way works for me.

I'd be inclined to change insurance company before cover is refused, hopefully your at renewal right now.

I am. To add to the confusion, I received a letter from the new insurers today confirming that the new period of insurance started on the 1st of April and I didn't need to do anything (the direct debit I had with Kwik-Fit has been transferred to Autonet). So are they insuring me or not? More phone calls to make tomorrow.

Its really not possible to find out how its constructed without reconstructing it. If you had to take a look i'd guess the outside edge might have maybe a soffet around it or an edge you can get off behind the gutter and remake without too much to put it right after, then you could see into the structure and make a reasonable assumption of construction.

Maybe, but I know so little about the subject that I had to look up what a soffet is. I haven't looked at the edge of the roof in...well, ever. I paid a surveyor to do that sort of thing before I bought the house (they described it and most of the house in terms such as "adequate" and "satisfactory").

As for the angle of why they want to know, its always about risk but of what could be anyone's guess. As flat roofs are bound to leak and could cause damage i'd guess thats one angle,

That's fair enough. If they had said something like "flat roofs are a higher risk and you'll have to pay a higher premium", I'd be OK with that. But shingles, thatch and asbestos were explicitly mentioned as being the things they were concerned about.

asbestos could be a worry in an extension of that age but in general leaving it alone is the best policy.

That was my understanding too, as long as there isn't any damage (and there isn't). Also, it's painted with at least 4 coats and at least 3 of those coats are waterproof. It's quite effectively sealed.

Are you talking about artex? The swirling patterns I mean.

I thought "Artex" was a trademark for a specific product from a specific company.

Surely some pictures would help here?

This will sound bizarre nowadays, but I don't have a camera.

It's most likely plasterboard with artex on (swirling patterns) fixed to timber joists? If there is soffits and it's of a correct age they could be asbestos (cement or insulating board). It could even be stramit board I guess?

Having looked up what stramit board is, I guess it could be. I think the flat roof was rebuilt in 1997. The house was in a poor state, bought on the cheap by a company that did that sort of thing, renovated and sold. So a lot of the work on it was done in 1997.


Thanks to everyone for the suggestions and advice.

 

[Angilion]

An update for anyone who might be reading this thread:

The situation is resolved and my house continues to be insured.

I spoke with a different person at the insurance broker, who spoke with someone else at the underwriters, who clarified that (a) the size of the roof was relevant, (b) the concern about the material was for the outer material, (c) if the flat roof was <49% of the total roof area (it's more like 4.9%) it's covered by their standard insurance and (d) mineralised felt is covered by their standard insurance. So my house is covered by their standard insurance, standard terms, job done.