It used to be a hot hatch was a performance version of a basic hatch. Then the Golf R and other such cars and manufacturers started their power race and cars got faster and faster. A Hot Hatch did 0-60 in 7-8 seconds and still felt good for doing it. Now anything that doesn't do it in less than 6 is lambasted as too slow. And normally £30k+ to boot. The power and money is now getting a bit ridiculous and too expensive.Strange conclusions. The point of a hot hatch was it was an affordable car for the masses that gave something closer to the unaffordable fast cars that had come before. No manufacturer made statements of "it goes round corners fast but its slow in a striaght line", it was more about the engine than the handling in the earliest hot hates.
All audis have a slightly floaty steering feeling, its part of what makes them quicker for the normal driver I feel, the changes in how they feel with the changes in modes are difficult to explain, you either need to be a very experienced driver, driving constantly lots of cars, or an owner who can feel how its changed in different modes. Most who really understand the fast audis will switch the suspension from a hard setting to a softer one, you get more body roll and this triggers faster switching to rear bias.
Those who don't get it will always switch everything to hardest/dynamic and think its "best"
The modes are to give different experiences, someone who only thinks it should be in dynamic, is the sort of person who I guess would insist driving a car with track mode should always be in that as well, I mean its the most "drivers" right?
There is something about "old technology" fordsI agree. When Evos and Scoobs were the thing there was still a good group running the old cossies still and in those days it was a different breed as well.
Some people will always be laggards, usually highlighted by saying a drivers car cannot have an auto box. Its old and boring, but everyone is entitled to the views.
I am sure the dinosaurs would prefer a manual box as well
Is the moutune m52 golf r the new hot hatch sleeper king?
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Soldato
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I don't think its changed really personally. To me a hot hatch is still an enhanced version of a basic car, the original Golf GTi, Escort XR3, they were pretty much the maximum that could be achieved without turning them into impossibly priced versions no one would buy. Basic dynamic, noticably faster in a straight line than a normal one, slightly better spec (things like recaros), margninally better handling.
The 90s werent such a good period for the classic "hot hatch" it was closer to the "hot saloon", but other pretenders took their place, imprezas, Evos etc Same basic recipe, faster, better spec, handled better than their standard model they were based on.
Roll on to now, Civic Rs, RS's, Golf Rs, M140is etc, there are probably more contenders right now for hot hatches than ever before. Still using the same basic recipe, tuned/bigger engine, nicer spec, better handling (more back breaking)
Nothing has changed They are still a tweaked version of basic cars that offers more performance and a decent price premium, that compete more with cars costing a lot more, but with a more prestige badge.
The people who say an auto box cant be ahit hatch, or its not a hot hatch because its got less feel or xyz just fail to understand the evolution of what they are.
An MX5 isnt a hot hatch, its not based on a normal car, just as a Z4 isn't.
I guess the difficultly in the area of whats the minimum to qualify as a hot hatch is debateable. It was far more obvious when they first arrived in the mainstream concious, although they existed before with things like the Lotus cortina. They were far more limited edition. Is the golf GTi a hot hatch would probably be the most questionable, personally I say yes it still meets the requirements to me, does the Golf R automatically relegate it to non hot hatch land?
I don't think its changed really personally. To me a hot hatch is still an enhanced version of a basic car, the original Golf GTi, Escort XR3, they were pretty much the maximum that could be achieved without turning them into impossibly priced versions no one would buy. Basic dynamic, noticably faster in a straight line than a normal one, slightly better spec (things like recaros), margninally better handling.
The 90s werent such a good period for the classic "hot hatch" it was closer to the "hot saloon", but other pretenders took their place, imprezas, Evos etc Same basic recipe, faster, better spec, handled better than their standard model they were based on.
Roll on to now, Civic Rs, RS's, Golf Rs, M140is etc, there are probably more contenders right now for hot hatches than ever before. Still using the same basic recipe, tuned/bigger engine, nicer spec, better handling (more back breaking)
Nothing has changed They are still a tweaked version of basic cars that offers more performance and a decent price premium, that compete more with cars costing a lot more, but with a more prestige badge.
The people who say an auto box cant be ahit hatch, or its not a hot hatch because its got less feel or xyz just fail to understand the evolution of what they are.
An MX5 isnt a hot hatch, its not based on a normal car, just as a Z4 isn't.
I guess the difficultly in the area of whats the minimum to qualify as a hot hatch is debateable. It was far more obvious when they first arrived in the mainstream concious, although they existed before with things like the Lotus cortina. They were far more limited edition. Is the golf GTi a hot hatch would probably be the most questionable, personally I say yes it still meets the requirements to me, does the Golf R automatically relegate it to non hot hatch land?
The cars you mention, original Golf GTI, Escort XR3 and others of that era did 0-60 in around 8 seconds. At the time that was fast. Ferrari's and Lamborghini's of the time had ~250HP and did 0-60 in around 5 seconds. Even a Ferrari 328, available from 1986-1989 had 'only' 270HP and did 0-60 in 5.5 seconds. Could you imagine a Ferrari having only 270HP these days when a Civic Type R and a Golf R have more? Hell even the Mark 3 Escort RS Turbo had only 130HP. The essence of the Hot Hatch has been lost due to price and power and weight. One of the best Hot Hatches ever had only 167HP!
Yea it's the weight which is the killer on modern cars
But back then most supercars actually sucked. When the Cosworth era arrived they had to up their game massively.
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They were no cheaper in real terms back then really, compared to the average salary thats why everyone wasnt driving the XR3 or a golf GTi, just like they arent all driving M140is etc now
In fact arguably the cost of ownership was higher, anything decently targetted for being stolen was horrible to insure, theft prevention was nigh on non existent. i remember getting into my car in the carpark and only realising when I sat down it wasnt mine, it was actually someone elses who had an identical looking escort!
(average wage in 1986 was under 10k for someone in fulltime employment, age 30-39) the cost of a new XR3i was £8169, with decent options £9521, almost a years salary
Hard to get a similar figure for 2019, but the listed average full time is £36.6K. Focus RS starts about 31.5K upto about 35k with options, its really similar in terms of cost to average salary.
For the average person getting into one now is easier, with things like PCP as long as you can afford the payments its easy.
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Yea it's the weight which is the killer on modern cars
But back then most supercars actually sucked. When the Cosworth era arrived they had to up their game massively.
Its literally the opposite, teh lack of weight (active and passive safety adds a lot) and being peak "bean can" bodywork meant a lot of cars of those days were literal killers
Same time as the sierra cosworths were about Ferrari was at Testarossa stage. I don't think there would have been many selecting the sierra who could afford the ferrari
IIrc Lambo wernt in a good stage right then.
The first Ferrari hypercar was in 1962, the 250GTO, almost 300bhp. They could build them a long time ago, whether people could and would pay for them has pretty much always been a different thing in automotive to whether it could technically be done
$18.5k in 1962 was a fair wadge of cash for a car
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_250_GTO
It was also the time of teh Etype. 1961 0-60 6.4seconds Ford sierra 1983, 204bhp (people forget it wasn't actually that powerful really) 0-60 6.5 secs
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I believe the Golf Rs,RS3,Type-R,S3 and Focus RS are really now should be a separate class from "hot-hatch". The Abarth 500,Polo GTI,Fiesta ST and 208 GTI should be classed as this era "hot-hatches".
The Golf GTI, Focus ST and Mini Cooper JW id say should go in middle between the hot-hatch and the crazy class.
The Golf GTI, Focus ST and Mini Cooper JW id say should go in middle between the hot-hatch and the crazy class.
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I thought I posted earlier this, but to me I agree with you, they are the "hyper hatch"
Obviously with the Audi until it approaches a corner when it becomes the hyper understeer hatch