Bristol to become the UK's first city to ban diesel cars from entering parts of the city centre

[Six6siX]

Ok in some scenarios but I live in a rural area, we have a bus the runs about twice a day to the next nearest village, so simply isn't practical. You can't walk anywhere it's too far (some 3.5miles to the nearest shop for example) plus there are no footpaths anyway, let alone cycle paths.

With no street lights and NSL roads cycling here is very dangerous.

So, I would be heavily penalised if there were such thing. I am completely reliant on a car.

Interesting point. At the end of the day, you're making more use of the road network and emitting more so really, shouldn't you pay more? I mean, that's the whole point isn't it? I get that it's outside your control (other than literally moving somewhere else, which is silly) - would be interesting to see any studies done which work out the optimal rate per mile that could be charged to make it equivalent to the current tax rates, as an average across some different use case groups.

Conversely, I pay almost 600 quid a year tax for a car that does probably about 4k miles pa at most. So I'm heavily penalised by the current system despite hardly making use of any of the road network and lower emissions over a year than loads of £0 or £30 tax payers.

Basically, I think either system will have people 'unfairly penalised'.

 

[Nasher]

Problem is any tracking being done from the car's end is easy to cheat, otherwise they would likely have done it already.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

I don’t think anyone is suggesting people in rural areas start cycling miles on unlit country roads.

A mileage and pollution tax is essentially what we have now.

Interesting point. At the end of the day, you're making more use of the road network and emitting more so really, shouldn't you pay more? I mean, that's the whole point isn't it? I get that it's outside your control (other than literally moving somewhere else, which is silly) - would be interesting to see any studies done which work out the optimal rate per mile that could be charged to make it equivalent to the current tax rates, as an average across some different use case groups.

Conversely, I pay almost 600 quid a year tax for a car that does probably about 4k miles pa at most. So I'm heavily penalised by the current system despite hardly making use of any of the road network and lower emissions over a year than loads of £0 or £30 tax payers.

Basically, I think either system will have people 'unfairly penalised'.

While I understand your argument it falls down quickly when you realise none of the money from fuel duty or VED goes into maintaining the roads directly. While you do create lower overall pollution, the strength pollution you do make when you drove is far worse than someone who pays £30.

The vast majority of the road network is maintained by the local authority and paid for directly through council tax.

Fuel duty and VED just goes into the big treasury pot and gets used on general expenditure. The biggest recipients are welfare, pensions and NHS. Only motorways and a few major A roads are maintained by highways England or the devolved equivalent.

 

[Jez]

Problem is any tracking being done from the car's end is easy to cheat, otherwise they would likely have done it already.

The only way i can see end user tracking being done would be to have a live tracker network on every car. This would then just be the same as driving without road tax, ie if an ANPR sees you, or you get pulled over, and the tracker network doesnt agree with where you are, then you will be investigated and fined very heavily.

 

[Nasher]

The only way i can see end user tracking being done would be to have a live tracker network on every car. This would then just be the same as driving without road tax, ie if an ANPR sees you, or you get pulled over, and the tracker network doesnt agree with where you are, then you will be investigated and fined very heavily.

It would be hard to follow it with ANPR and if you are blocking the signal how would the network even know you are using it in the first place?

 

[Jez]

It would be hard to follow it with ANPR and if you are.blocking the signal how would the network even know you are uaing it in the first placs?

If you were blocking it, then the ANPR camera would not agree with the tracker location....if the tracker is working then the location should agree.

 

[Nasher]

If you were blocking it, then the ANPR camera would not agree with the tracker location....if the tracker is working then the location should agree.

Against a sea of other cars you would never be able to pick out a single wireless signal like that.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Why would they need to follow it on ANPR or squire a signal?

The ANPR location is known. The car will report its location to the mothership via GPS receiver and a cell phone connection, if the car isn’t reporting or reports elsewhere to the ANPR camera at the same time it’s fairly obvious there is a problem. It’s highly unlikely it will report its location in real time but send bursts of data back to the mothership which can process it and compare it against ANPR pings.

The obvious argument against this is cloned plates.

 

[Jez]

Against a sea of other cars you would never be able to pick out a single wireless signal like that.

Trackers are an old and proven technology aren't they? Couriers and hauliers etc all track their vehicles these days. Perhaps it wouldnt work, i just cant see how else they can do it.

 

[Nasher]

Trackers are an old and proven technology aren't they? Couriers and hauliers etc all track their vehicles these days. Perhaps it wouldnt work, i just cant see how else they can do it.

By GPS yea.

 

[Jez]

Why would they need to follow it on ANPR?

The ANPR location is known. The car will report its location to the mothership, if the car isn’t reporting or reports elsewhere to the ANPR camera at the same time it’s fairly obvious there is a problem.

The obvious argument against this is cloned plates.

Exactly this. The issues around cloned plates already exist with ANPR enforcing the VED system.

 

[Jez]

By GPS yea.

I am not suggesting that they use any new technology here....just that surely the existing network, expanded, is the only way to do this? The ANPR network is already there for VED/police purposes anyway. GPS tracking is old and established.

Put the two together and fine heavily for mismatched locations, traffic police pull people over if a car isnt currently transmitting, and you have a workable system.

 

[Nasher]

I am not suggesting that they use any new technology here....just that surely the existing network, expanded, is the only way to do this?

If they relied just on GPS it would be flakey and super easy to fool for cheap tax. Cops would have to drive around with very expensive signal testing equipment to try and catch people 1 by 1.

 

[Jez]

If they relied just on GPS it would be flakey and super easy to fool for cheap tax.

If you fooled it then your location would mismatch?

 

[Nasher]

If you fooled it then your location would mismatch?

Or just wrap the receiver in tin foil so your invisible.

 

[SonicSW20]

Can they do it in London next? Be nice not to have black snot after a day of meetings in central.

 

[Jez]

Or just wrap the receiver in tin foil so your invisible.

Which is easy to do, but would result in a mismatched location as you would not be transmitting. I am not sure how this is so hard to understand?

This is only the same as the current VED enforcement system really, you drive through ANPR and it checks your status and fines you if it doesnt match. Of course people cheat it, but the vast majority dont risk it.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Don’t worry @Jez I get it

 

[Jez]

Don’t worry @Jez I get it

haha,

Nasher to be clear:
No transmission noticed by a police car with ANPR checker (tin foil example) = pull over and investigate/fine
Mismatched (fooled/spoofed/box left at home on a bettery) = pull over and investigate/fine

You'd be driving around at quite a risk as there are ANPR cameras everywhere, it would immediately flag if you are not matching or transmitting. Foolproof, probably not, but it is at least as good if not far more so than the current VED enforcement system.

 

[Nasher]

There are so many technical flaws with a system like that when you try to actually apply it in the real world. It takes them years just to catch up with people now and the system is far simpler.