Franco's tomb desecrated for political aggrandisement.

Caporegime
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I expanded (barely), it's in jest mostly, obviously people can choose their paths, but we certainly... did not make a good impression.

I mean look what we did to them.

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source:wikipedia


Those make for some misleading figures, when scientific and technological advancement flourishes GDP increases in those countries, thus the Wests's share of GDP increases without actually negatively influencing other countries. Much like how the Middle East went from being a treasure trove of culture and scientific discovery to an oppressive society shunning science and retreating into religious madness and as a society they consequently declined.
 
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No they shouldn't have. USSR was even worse than Nazi Germany in death count. I don't advocate for us to be handing over bodies to another maniac. We're the ones who stopped Nazi Germany. If any one should have taken control of his body it should have been us

I think the point being made, certainly the point I took from what was posted was that the USSR decision to bury Hitler's remains in an unremarkable and unrecognised place has prevented, or helped to prevent a shrine to an ideology and person most of us would now recognise as dangerous and wrong. The US did the same by laying Bin Laden to rest at sea. We haven't forgotten what either man did, or how they are responsible for the suffering of millions. Franco was, of course, not recognised by the government of Francon Spain as a terrorist or despot but as a great and venerable leader worthy of not just respect but high honour, at the time of his death, like Mao and Satlin.

As I see it, there were two options if as a society you didn't wish to give him high honour any more.

1: encompass his shrine into a wide memorial of all those affected by the civil war and what followed. Like Auschwitz focusing on his victims and on remembering.

2: Move his body to a more private place with dignity and respect. This is what seems to have happened.

Which would have been the better long term option remains to be seen but I'm pleased the Spanish are recognising that he was a tyrant not deserving of respect abdhave taken action. As for Mao and Stalin, I'd like to see them go the same way but ultimately it's not my decision, those decisions lie with the Chinese and Russians respectively. I can live in hope one that one day that'll make similar decisions for similar reasons. In the mean time all I can do is to ensure, in my small way, that their atrocities are not forgotten either
 
Caporegime
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Those make for some misleading figures, when scientific and technological advancement flourishes GDP increases in those countries, thus the Wests's share of GDP increases without actually negatively influencing other countries. Much like how the Middle East went from being a treasure trove of culture and scientific discovery to an oppressive society shunning science and retreating into religious madness and as a society they consequently declined.

That period was when colonial policy was to steal someone else's wealth to add to our own. Even if it meant forcing say, China, to submit to addiction. So I while you aren't incorrect, I don't think with context that it's just a matter of arithmetic. Anyway super offtopic, i'll leave that there, there's a lot of nuance with history and it would take forever to go through the paces.
 
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EVERYTHING? I accept this may be an emotive event, but, like Brexit, opinions obviously vary. Here's a recent Spanish poll on how the polled citizens feel about the desecration:
43% supported the move, with 32.5% against and the rest undecided. Seems a sizeable percentage agree with me that he should have been left undisturbed. And a fair proportion were undecided.

Thats a massive landslide majority compared to the Brexit vote. On those results you could absolutely claim its the "will of the people" and plough on with it no matter how many protest against it.
 
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That period was when colonial policy was to steal someone else's wealth to add to our own. Even if it meant forcing say, China, to submit to addiction. So I while you aren't incorrect, I don't think with context that it's just a matter of arithmetic. Anyway super offtopic, i'll leave that there, there's a lot of nuance with history and it would take forever to go through the paces.

You're right, it's not a matter of simple arithmetic. Hence why posting a Wikipedia graph of GDP doesn't really say anything about why India and the Middle east starting declining thousands of years ago...
 
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Thats a massive landslide majority compared to the Brexit vote. On those results you could absolutely claim its the "will of the people" and plough on with it no matter how many protest against it.


Give it a rest, are you and no doubt that garnet chap still going on about this fait acompli ? What's the Tory majority on the back of a clear "Get Brexit done" campaign, about 78? I must have a look in the Speaker's Corner for a chortle, to see if the denial is as strong still as I suspect... As for the Spanish, I doubt they'll all be agog complimenting BBC4, he STILL has a huge number of fans.
 
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Give it a rest, are you and no doubt that garnet chap still going on about this fait acompli ? What's the Tory majority on the back of a clear "Get Brexit done" campaign, about 78? I must have a look in the Speaker's Corner for a chortle, to see if the denial is as strong still as I suspect... As for the Spanish, I doubt they'll all be agog complimenting BBC4, he STILL has a huge number of fans.

No, stop being a hypocrite. On the basis of the brexit vote being a massive will of the people, it’s an absolute landslide the majority of Spanish wanted his grave moved. If you can’t see that then you have to accept you are wrong on Brexit. You can’t have it both ways just when it suits you and your mates in the local pub.
 
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No, stop being a hypocrite. On the basis of the brexit vote being a massive will of the people, it’s an absolute landslide the majority of Spanish wanted his grave moved. If you can’t see that then you have to accept you are wrong on Brexit. You can’t have it both ways just when it suits you and your mates in the local pub.


I'll leave you to lick each others wounds in Speaker's Corner, where Brexit discussion has been pushed, the people that actually matter have now spoken, loudly.
 
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I'll leave you to lick each others wounds in Speaker's Corner, where Brexit discussion has been pushed, the people that actually matter have now spoken, loudly.

Then you'll agree that moving Franco's tomb is the will of the Spanish people and everyone else is left in the gutter, to be completely ignored?
 
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I do not know what the problem is as it is common practise. Austria bought and demolished the house Hitler was born to stop it being a focus for Neo-Nazis. Osama's body was buried at sea by the US for the same reason. Franco should never have been put there in the first place for the same reason. Countries tend to get rid of awkward periods in their lives. This has documented since Pharaonic times. Only the supporters of the said extremists seem to object.
 
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I do not know what the problem is as it is common practise. Austria bought and demolished the house Hitler was born to stop it being a focus for Neo-Nazis. Osama's body was buried at sea by the US for the same reason. Franco should never have been put there in the first place for the same reason. Countries tend to get rid of awkward periods in their lives. This has documented since Pharaonic times. Only the supporters of the said extremists seem to object.

What about Muhammad? Mass murdering, torturing, betraying, child molesting slaver. Should his tomb be desecrated?
 
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I'll leave you to lick each others wounds in Speaker's Corner, where Brexit discussion has been pushed, the people that actually matter have now spoken, loudly.

which is why there is nothing to discuss on Franco. The Spanish people have spoken with a overwhelming majority, best you and your fellow Franco supporters just be quiet now and shut up. Your opinion no longer counts or matters anymore
 
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Then you'll agree that moving Franco's tomb is the will of the Spanish people and everyone else is left in the gutter, to be completely ignored?


There was a clear referendum on Brexit, followed by a general election when the nay sayers put obstacles in the way, which again showed a clear majority in favor of Brexit, as that was the crux of the Tory manifesto. The moving of Franco's remains was something undertaken by the present socialist government, there was no national vote on his disinterment. although the government did make it part of their lengthy manifesto. So no, of course I won't agree...The two are nothing like the same.
 
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which is why there is nothing to discuss on Franco. The people have spoken with a overwhelming majority, best you and your fellow Franco supporters just be quiet now and shut up.

Of course there is nothing I can do, and nor should there be, I am not Spanish. It's just that it sets a possible precedent that could lead to disinterment of bodies from nearly every major cemetery in dozens of countries, should the liberals choose to make more anguished waves. Where does it stop, do we dig up every murderer and rapist? Every slave trader? Every child molester and put them in unmarked graves or bury their remains at sea? We now have students on bursaries paid for by the magnanimity of Victorians clamoring for every trace of their existence to be removed from the buildings and their grounds, that they paid for. I have yet to see any remove themselves from these establishments, they continue to get subsidized education whilst making a lot of noise. A lot like all the "celebrities" who vowed to leave the UK or the USA when things didn't go to their liking. 99% plus are still there, or here, impotently bleating.
 
Soldato
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It was a poll not a referendum which is hardly conclusive to anything.

Indeed, Polls can be very misleading and unrepresentative.

I dare say any Polling on the subject of Franco in Spain will suffer quite significantly from a "Shy Francoista effect" in much the same way as Tory support is typically underrepresented in polls as a result of what is well known as the "Shy Tory Effect"

Though the under representing in the case of anything Franco related is likely to be even more significant.

A Poll on Franco that goes 32/42 is likely to be a lot closer in reality than the numbers suggest.
 
Caporegime
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Indeed, Polls can be very misleading and unrepresentative.

I dare say any Polling on the subject of Franco in Spain will suffer quite significantly from a "Shy Francoista effect" in much the same way as Tory support is typically underrepresented in polls as a result of what is well known as the "Shy Tory Effect"

Though the under representing in the case of anything Franco related is likely to be even more significant.

A Poll on Franco that goes 32/42 is likely to be a lot closer in reality than the numbers suggest.

What? The Tories weren't underrepresented, you're making a lot of assumptions about polling there.

It was a poll not a referendum which is hardly conclusive to anything.

btw its nothing to do with Franco supporter or not, its to do with leaving historically important (wether good or bad) as they are. How about we relocate some of the Kings/Queens entombed in St Pauls or Westminster Abby as undoubtedly some of them weren't nice people and will have had 100/1000's killed..Henry the VIII maybe or should they bulldoze Auschwitz as thats one of the worst places imaginable or perhaps it serves as a reminder for future generations ;)

Auschwitz serves as a reminder for a reason, it's a mass grave. Franco's entombment overshadowed that point at the Valle de los Caidos, it would be like burying Hitler atop Auschwitz in an entirely too ornate manner. It would have undoubtedly become a meeting point for Neo-Nazi's, perhaps planning more violence against the very people that lay beneath them. Unconscionable.

As far as I know those Kings and Queens aren't currently bothering people anyway, Franco's victims are within living memory, as are Hitler's, Stalin's and Mao's. The only difference is that Hitler lost and never got to decide the fate of his resting place.

There was a clear referendum on Brexit, followed by a general election when the nay sayers put obstacles in the way, which again showed a clear majority in favor of Brexit, as that was the crux of the Tory manifesto. The moving of Franco's remains was something undertaken by the present socialist government, there was no national vote on his disinterment. although the government did make it part of their lengthy manifesto. So no, of course I won't agree...The two are nothing like the same.

So wait, the Tories put it in their manifesto that they would enact the Brexit vote, with no further 'obstacles', which ultimately won with a plurality (44% of the vote vs 32%), you imply that this mean's it is a clear majority in favour. But then you say that a similar plural win (29% vs 17%) for the Spanish government who stood on this in their own manifesto is not a clear majority? I can see the point about it just being a poll and not a referendum where people can be more honest. But there really isn't much point arguing about systems of plurality and pretending that give's clear messages about single issues, all we have is polling, there is no other evidence to make arguments with.

Why the hell are you so agitated over Franco anyway?
 
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