Did AMD just kill off RTX

[humbug]

You can only reason compare IPC of a GPU within the same vendor as nvidia and AMDs architectures are very different (not like there both x86 cores like in the CPU world). You can only really compare performance per watt between the vendors. IMO anyways

They are different, yes, you see that in difference games, AMD does better than Nvidia in Metro Exodus despite it being an Nvidia title while Nvidia does better in Outer Worlds despite it being an AMD sponsored title.

You're right about comparing IPC AMD vs Nvidia, however 'for science' i still think its useful to compare them if you take a wide range of titles and average the overall performance.

A 5700XT running at about 1800Mhz with 2560 Shaders is at least as fast as an RTX 2070 running at 1950Mhz with 2304 Shaders (overall) out of this fairly comprehensive collection of games.

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-radeon-rx-5700-xt/28.html

 

[willhub]

The general consensus seems to be that AMD can do ray tracing and that Nvidia can do RTX but not ray tracing?

 

[TNA]

The general consensus seems to be that AMD can do ray tracing and that Nvidia can do RTX but not ray tracing?

Erm, what? Lol

 

[willhub]

Erm, what? Lol

Come on read into that again, think deep, RTX (Nvidia) - Ray tracing. AMD - Ray tracing.

 

[humbug]

The general consensus seems to be that AMD can do ray tracing and that Nvidia can do RTX but not ray tracing?

Its all just Ray Tracing. RTX is just a marketing term for Nvidia's GPU's that run the same Microsoft DXR that any DX12/Vulkan capable GPU can run.

 

[gpuerrilla]

Just like adaptive sync. Nvidia coined G-sync then AMD chose freesync.. again a marketing term for something that anyone can implement. Pattern forming much?

 

[D.P.]

You mean RT not RTX as no other company will call it RTX and I doubt Nvidia extensions will be standard for AMD based consoles as microarchitecture is different. Nvidia extensions are added to suit Nvidia GPUs. DXR is what you are taking about which is agnostic.

Intel is probably working on raytracing too and also in the mobile space Imagination already demoed it,so I doubt they would be either.

Also Vulkan is based on AMD work done on Mantle,but with major modifications to make it hardware agnostic.

RTX is a generic term for raytracing. Nvidia does use it as a brand but developers refer to RTX, e.g. adding RTX to a game engine when they will use MS DXR as the API.


Kronos has basically already committed to using Nvidia's extension as the default API. Other parties can debate dome changes and if concensus is agreed then changes may be made. Note that the Nvidia extensions are based on MS DXR which is what MS and Nvidia worked on together and are already hardware agnostic. It is mostly an exercise in renaming API calls from VK_NV* to VK_

 

[D.P.]

Nvidia extensions for their own GPUs? So how do other GPUs which don't share the same design work then?

Why do you think AMD and Intel are working with Khronos Group - they are adding their own extensions so their own GPUs will work.

I would imagine it's Microsoft who did most of the software heavy lifting work and only worked with Nvidia as they had the first compatible hardware.

Edit!!

The whole point of Nvidia Windows extensions under DXR is so it can use Nvidia specific RT hardware. If not it will fall back to software only rendering which is agnostic.

So are people saying basically DXR is essentially mostly Nvidia work and MS put their own branding on it? Because I would find it weird if MS would like it's work shared with a competing API.

You dont seem to understand what an API is? The Nvidia extensions are essentially just method names and variable signatures. How that interacts with the hardware is entirely up to the driver, as such the API is hardware agnostic as long as it supports the same underlying functionality.

Microsoft and Nvidia worked together on the DX12 ray tracing API called DXR with minimal external input as AMD had no hardware.

MS have no real control over what the Kronos group decides in terms of API. You can only patent and copyright specific implementations, not vague ideas. An API is just a naming convention with a contract to provide the specified functionality. Much of the Vulkan and DX12 API is very similar if not identical by design. E.G the HLSL shading language used by vulkan is the exact copy of Microsofts DX12.1. The raytracing API mostly exists as functions in the HLSL shader language. This allows cross-API functionality and makes it easier for devs to move from DX12 to Vulkan or support both APIs.

And thus ray tracing in Vulkan will resemble MS DX12 DXR which is largely designed by Nvidia.

If AMD require wildly different API then they will have to work with MS to develop a new API and they wont be DXR compatible. That would be quite a failure for AMD in the short term and unrealistic. What is more likely is AMD will first produce DXR compatible hardware and confirm to the API largely proposed by Nvidia. In the future AMD will have a larger say in necessary changes. Short term they can specify different feature sets

None of this is particularly bad for AMD. Ms will have only accepted Nvidia's API suggestion if they believed it was fairly hardware agnostic and a sensible API.

 

[humbug]

@D.P. stop falling for the Leather Jackets marketing antics mate

Ray Tracing is a technology that's been around almost as long as Nvidia, Microsoft DXR is just Ray Tracing, DXR simply makes it agnostic, Microsoft have been working with Nvidia, Intel and AMD to make Ray Tracing 'Direct-X Agnostic'. It is not something that has been bestowed upon us by the great Jenz to Microsoft and with that to the rest of us Plebeians.

 

[EastCoastHandle]

Ray tracing goes as far back as the late 1970's. It's not something new or "discovered" by nvidia.
Therefore, you don't have to work with nvidia nor MS to use it. From the rumors, Sony is implementing their own way of doing it for their PS5.

 

[humbug]

Ray tracing goes as far back as the late 1970's. It's not something new or "discovered" by nvidia.

Ok, its been around a lot longer than Nvidia....

 

[b00merang69]

He never stated it was, he did state a fact that MS and Nvidia worked on the way it is currently implemented into DX and Windows a bit Like PhysX, there was Havok based physics before that.

 

[EastCoastHandle]

What should be made clear here is that you DO NOT need to work with MS nor Nvidia in order to use ray tracing.

 

[b00merang69]

Correct you can have a program that can run RT any way you like but you are not going to have it in a game running DX on Windows without MS.

 

[Scania]

Who gives a **** in all honesty?

 

[humbug]

What should be made clear here is that you DO NOT need to work with MS nor Nvidia in order to use ray tracing.

Yes, Ray Tracing has been used in games since long before Nvidia Coined "RTX".

And to leave out the other two partners in "Making Ray Tracing Direct-X Agnostic" is disingenuous, DXR is coming to Consoles 'Much to Nvidia's frustrations i'm sure' and in DXR form, Nvidia are not going to be working with Microsoft to make DXR for AMD GPU's, or Intel for that matter.

 

[EastCoastHandle]

Yes, Ray Tracing has been used in games since long before Nvidia Coined "RTX".

...the other two partners in "Making Ray Tracing Direct-X Agnostic" is disingenuous

This I can agree with as I certainly am:
-skeptical
-doubtful
-cynical
with your assertion.

 

[humbug]

To be clear about what i said, Microsoft cannot make Ray Tracing Agnostic without the other two players.

 

[Gregster]

Thread has not disappointed. So many people showing their bias, they don't have a clue what is what with RT.

 

[Rroff]

Correct you can have a program that can run RT any way you like but you are not going to have it in a game running DX on Windows without MS.

You don't even need to use DXR to do ray tracing in a game - but good luck with being able to do something like RTX has brought to the table at anything approaching the same level of features and performance as the RT hardware enables this generation never mind next.

Many many years ago I implemented the first stage in a DX7 engine:

Spoiler

2 FPS LOL at very reduced quality just doing the very most basic light and shadow pass. I later found a technique to bring that up to around 300 FPS ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydJCmXEHLrY ) but then it dropped to 2 FPS again trying to do proper lighting with stuff like reflections hah (this is the very most rudimentary first stage in implementing ray tracing) and purely misusing the fixed function pipeline on the GPU no compute shaders, etc.

I'm certainly no expert on the subject and only dabbled out of curiosity but there is so much utter BS talked about ray tracing from people with no intention in educating themselves on the subject usually agenda driven