So, Ferrari were 'not exactly following the spirit of the rules' then?

[deuse]

As has been said, if a car satisfies the scrutineers and matches all measurements and limits set in the regulations they’re not cheating. If they’ve found a loophole then the regulations are badly worded. The same thing happened to Brawn. Toyota, Williams and Brawn all identified a flaw in the wording of the regs that allowed for a double diffuser. Other teams missed it. Lots of teams were clamouring for a ban and disqualifications. Never happened as the cars were within the regulations. Same with McLaren’s dual brake pedals, F-Duct and Mercedes DAS.

The fia took a whole power unit away from ferrari.
The out come was supposed to be released in testing.
It has not.

"Brawn all identified a flaw in the wording of the regs that allowed for a double diffuser."

Wrong.
Brawn told the FIA about it(double diffuser\loop hole.) before designing it.

"The rear diffuser regulations are simply a section of the wider bodywork regulations, which also include sections which allow bodywork in areas not intended for the diffuser. More important is the fact that all three designs use a 'window' or hole to feed the top side of the diffuser. That hole is horizontal in the case of the Williams, vertical for the other two teams, and is located where the flat floor meets the diffuser. The Brawn and Williams cars have 'double deck' diffusers while the Toyota has a 'triple deck' version"

https://newatlas.com/formula-one-double-deck-diffuser/11260/

 

[Steampunk]

As has been said, if a car satisfies the scrutineers and matches all measurements and limits set in the regulations they’re not cheating. If they’ve found a loophole then the regulations are badly worded. The same thing happened to Brawn. Toyota, Williams and Brawn all identified a flaw in the wording of the regs that allowed for a double diffuser. Other teams missed it. Lots of teams were clamouring for a ban and disqualifications. Never happened as the cars were within the regulations. Same with McLaren’s dual brake pedals, F-Duct and Mercedes DAS.

There's a difference between a loophole in the rules that can be exploited (double-diffuser or DAS) and breaking the rules, but finding a way to get around the tests (eg RBRs moving floor, or various flexi-wings). We saw situations where the teams could break the rules (cars were filmed doing so) but not get caught by the tests. The tests were then changed and those rule-breaking behaviours were stopped.

FIA and Ferrrai only came to a settlement if there was something to settle. I suspect that Ferrari broke the rules, but found a way around the tests for those rules. FIA say they were cheating, Ferrari said they complied with all the required tests, so there was a stalemate and thus a settlement.

 

[MissChief]

There's a difference between a loophole in the rules that can be exploited (double-diffuser or DAS) and breaking the rules, but finding a way to get around the tests (eg RBRs moving floor, or various flexi-wings). We saw situations where the teams could break the rules (cars were filmed doing so) but not get caught by the tests. The tests were then changed and those rule-breaking behaviours were stopped.

FIA and Ferrrai only came to a settlement if there was something to settle. I suspect that Ferrari broke the rules, but found a way around the tests for those rules. FIA say they were cheating, Ferrari said they complied with all the required tests, so there was a stalemate and thus a settlement.

Exactly.

 

[hominid]

If it's as being reported, that Ferrari manipulated the measurement of the fuel flow sensor, that is a lot more serious than any sort of loophole. They, again if true, actively manipulated the measurement of fuel flow of an FIA monitored sensor - that's 100% cheating in my book.

Why the need for a confidential deal to keep the results of the investigation secret? RedBull and Mercedes both said the power gains were not achievable with the fuel flow they have, it took them months to work out what they thought Ferrari was doing and I suspect they got it bang on in the end - Verstappen was right, he was the only one with balls to say it publicly.

Why the need now for an additional fuel flow sensor out of the way for this years rules? Another thing that points to Ferrari cheating isn't it? Also makes sense now that Ferrari were under reporting fuel levels in their cars, https://www.speedcafe.com/2019/12/02/ferrari-cops-80000-fine-for-leclerc-fuel-breach/ , nearly 5Kg extra fuel, but again Ferrari only got an $80k fine and kept their points. It makes sense now, approximately 5% extra fuel for the race for when they need it, I suspect this is a massive scandal and I hope the other teams don't let it go - again, if true, it's cost the other teams millions in prize money and Ferrari should have been thrown out of the championship.

Of course this won't happen, Ferrari would have left if this ever got fully punished just like they threaten every time they don't get their own way. I'll wait for this to play out some more, there is way more to this that will come out. The FIA did a crappy thing leaving it so late, 5:50pm on the last day of testing, again by design, so they knew it was something to try and bury at the end of testing.

This stinks, this is not a loophole it's actively tricking an FIA control device to stop exactly this so therefor they, at least, should have been thrown out of the championship, just like McLaren, and a big fine - again, if true. We all know the FIA have it soft for Ferrari, they've let them off lightly multiple times last year, Suzuka with Leclerk's wing, they told the race director they were bringing him in and left him out - he should have been black flagged, then said they'd look into it after the race - for a first lap incident. Leclerk and fuel levels, even with Leclerk in Austria they were soft on him considering they punished the same earlier in the year. Lewis not being able to overtake the Ferrari, in Monza, whilst being in the slipstream was what really opened my eyes - in Ferrari's home race!

And now this..

 

[Steampunk]

Ferrari always threaten to leave, but they never do - their bluff should be called. Ferrari do very little advertising outside of their F1 activities, and they don't race anywhere else. They've got nowhere to go if they are not in F1, and if they are cheating like this and want to run home when they get caught instead of taking their punishment, then good riddance to them.

 

[JRS]

Ferrari always threaten to leave, but they never do - their bluff should be called. Ferrari do very little advertising outside of their F1 activities, and they don't race anywhere else. They've got nowhere to go if they are not in F1, and if they are cheating like this and want to run home when they get caught instead of taking their punishment, then good riddance to them.

 

[deuse]

I have read that the FIA can't test for this loop hole when the car is not moving....

Lets see if RB will do something about it.

 

[hominid]

Whilst I don't think Ferrari would leave F1, if they did both would be massively devalued if it ever happened. F1 could get over it in time but it would be a big deal, the biggest shock in the sports history by far - plus over a thousand people would be out of a job, it's all about saving face for Ferrari.

They had to keep it quiet, and Ferrari knows it! What were Ferrari thinking, they must be desperate to think that they could get away with it, but get away with it they have. The last time a scandal this big would be in the 90's with Beneton/Schumacher - hidden traction control and removing the fuel filter in the rig causing the fire in the pits, again nothing happened.

I do think this isn't the last we would hear about it, this will bubble on for a long time as some of the teams have lost millions in prize money because of this. Redbull should have been 2nd in the championship(with all the other Ferrari favoured rulings). A lot of salty people in the pits, and rightly so.

 

[Greboth]

There's a difference between a loophole in the rules that can be exploited (double-diffuser or DAS) and breaking the rules, but finding a way to get around the tests (eg RBRs moving floor, or various flexi-wings). We saw situations where the teams could break the rules (cars were filmed doing so) but not get caught by the tests. The tests were then changed and those rule-breaking behaviours were stopped.

FIA and Ferrrai only came to a settlement if there was something to settle. I suspect that Ferrari broke the rules, but found a way around the tests for those rules. FIA say they were cheating, Ferrari said they complied with all the required tests, so there was a stalemate and thus a settlement.

That makes no sense though - as I understand it, it is the FIA who make the ruling on whether a car is legal or not. So if the FIA say they were cheating (and had the evidence of it) then surely they should rule the car illegal. If the FIA can find no evidence of or can't prove Ferrari were cheating as it passed the required tests (as with RBR and the flexi wings) surely they have to rule the car legal (which from memory they did with RBR as it passed the tests). With the additional fuel meter this year the FIA obviously know what Ferrari were doing as they've taken steps to stop them doing it (the same as they changed the tests for the front wing because of RBR).

I think it's the grey area that has lots of peoples backs up as it hasn't reconciled anything. Having not specifically said that Ferrari were legal and Ferrari having settled which suggests some admission of guilt (else why settle?) it leaves it open that Ferrari indeed cheating and seemingly got away it.

I have read that the FIA can't test for this loop hole when the car is not moving....

Lets see if RB will do something about it.

Is that not then in effect the same as RBR's flexi wings. They passed the static tests but it was as clear to everyone they flexed more then they should. Which, as I said above, was ruled legal until the tests changed so why wasn't this ruled legal too?

 

[KillBoY_UK]

So a ruling was made on something that might of happened but we don't know and and a agreement was made even though it so small that don't see need to mention what it was all about.

It was clearly something they are keeping quiet on. The Ferrari politics game yet again

 

[Terminal_Boy]

Is this why the Ferraris suddenly gained a mid-season power advantage over the other teams?

 

[hominid]

Is this why the Ferraris suddenly gained a mid-season power advantage over the other teams?

And also when they lost that advantage in Austin when the FIA started looking. At some races they were gaining up to a second on the straights ONLY, but only after Hungary was it? where they got humiliated. I think they were lapped in Hungary, or very close to it - if memory serves.

 

[Yaayuh!]

And also when they lost that advantage in Austin when the FIA started looking. At some races they were gaining up to a second on the straights ONLY, but only after Hungary was it? where they got humiliated. I think they were lapped in Hungary, or very close to it - if memory serves.

Not lapped, but both Ferrari's were over 60 seconds behind...

1. Hamilton 1:35:03.796
2. Verstappen +17.796s
3. Vettel +61.433s
4. Leclerc +65.250s

 

[JRS]

And also when they lost that advantage in Austin when the FIA started looking. At some races they were gaining up to a second on the straights ONLY, but only after Hungary was it? where they got humiliated. I think they were lapped in Hungary, or very close to it - if memory serves.

They finished 3rd and 4th in Hungary. Everyone ate their tyres that day apart from the Mercs - Bottas would have been near the front as well if he hadn't taken some damage early on.

 

[hominid]

They finished 3rd and 4th in Hungary. Everyone ate their tyres that day apart from the Mercs - Bottas would have been near the front as well if he hadn't taken some damage early on.

Yes, they were very lucky to even have been in the points with the performance of the car that day. Hungary showed the achilles heel of the 2019 Ferrari, mostly corners, but it was after that that the Ferrari got that massive straight line speed boost.

 

[this_is_gav]

It wasn't just power though, it had a lot to do with tracks more suited to Ferrari's low-drag design (Spa and Monza in particular), though Ferrari were strong in Singapore too, which certainly isn't a track where power is key.

 

[poosemon]

The non-Ferrari teams have released a joint statement; Below taken from https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/shocked-teams-ferrari-fia-legal-action/4716003/

McLaren, Mercedes, Racing Point, Red Bull, Renault, AlphaTauri and Williams, all urged the FIA to give full disclosure of the truth behind the Ferrari affair.

"We, the undersigned teams, were surprised and shocked by the FIA's statement of Friday 28 February regarding the conclusion of its investigation into the Scuderia Ferrari Formula 1 Power Unit," said the statement.

"An international sporting regulator has the responsibility to act with the highest standards of governance, integrity and transparency.

"After months of investigations that were undertaken by the FIA only following queries raised by other teams, we strongly object to the FIA reaching a confidential settlement agreement with Ferrari to conclude this matter.

"Therefore, we hereby state publicly our shared commitment to pursue full and proper disclosure in this matter, to ensure that our sport treats all competitors fairly and equally. We do so on behalf of the fans, the participants and the stakeholders of Formula One.

"In addition, we reserve our rights to seek legal redress, within the FIA's due process and before the competent courts."

 

[this_is_gav]

I'm not sure what the teams hope to gain from this. Apparently Ferrari cannot be retrospectively punished now (even if they were found to be running illegally).

Do the teams want compensation as if the above is true then there can't be a reallocation of prize money. Are they hoping for presumably confidential Ferrari PU secrets to be made available?

I still feel there could be an awful lot in this line from the original statement. The FIA and Ferrari agreement to a "number of technical commitments that will improve the monitoring of all Formula One power units for forthcoming championship seasons". Are the rival teams worried about having other loopholes demonstrated, ones which might be being used?

It would be good if we had the whole story, but it's almost certainly not that simple. Still, there was a lot that the FIA could have expanded on for clarity without disclosing anything confidential.

 

[cu3ed]

It's more about the fat that Ferrari has somehow get away with this with absolutely no consequences. Add to that some shady going on behind closed door where the FIA are just fine with it. They want full disclosure as to har much Ferrari did with the engine, what they did. I imagine most are utterly sideswiped though at the non disclosure about any of the investigation. Its all very shady.

 

[JBeck]

Had the FIA said 'we conclude that Ferrari legally took advantage of a loophole in the regulations and absolutely did not cheat' then all would have been fine.

They didn't.

Had Ferrari said 'The FIA have concluded that we used a loophole and absolutely did not cheat, and by not releasing the information are protecting our intellectual rights to the technology used to achieve that'.

They didn't.

It's clearly below board and not legal yet we have the usual suspects in here defending them and referring to the strongest voices (me included) as Merc fanboys.

Well it looks like seven teams disagree with you.

As I already stated I believe that the FIA (as I have every right to an informative opinion) did discover an illegal setup regards fuel flow (which amounted to more than a use of a loophole) and are scared that Ferrari will walk.

I see Alpha Tauri signed it too, I am most definitely grabbing my popcorn!

Edit: I hope I'm wrong, losing Ferrari would be bad for many reasons.