General legal question-Consequences of admitting to/pleading guilty to a crime not comitted?

Orionaut

Orionaut

Orionaut

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Consider the situation.

#1 An innocent defendant pleads guilty as part of a favourable plea bargain (I am sure this happens a lot in the US)

#2 An innocent convict admits guilt to obtain parole/early release.

Consider the situation that in both cases the individual is subsequently shown to have been innocent.

Has anybody under these circumstances ever been charged with perjury (Or any other offense relating to making false statements)?

(And no, I am not asking on behalf of a Friend, or on my own behalf either. Just curious :D )
 
In both cases the defendant is actually a victim of blackmail by the state. The real crime is the system allowing a prosecutor to do that at all.
 
In the US the justice system is really uneven. You can be charged with a crime like computer hacking (state computers) with a threat of 75 year sentence if you get found guilty or serve a sentence of 8 years if you admit your guilt. I don't know anyone has every been charged with perjury for admitting guilt when they were innocent, there probably have been cases in past but most likely it was were one party was trying to protect another part.
 
Any time I watch a US legal show/drama I find their system so flawed and unfair.

People end up doing plea deals with the prosecution/DA even if they haven't committed a crime.

Also their divorce courts - I watched Marriage Story last night and it was ridiculous. It doesn't help that different states have different laws.
 
Is this related to General Michael Flynn being set up by the FBI? it's a very similar ongoing case if not.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...lanned-Michael-Flynn-lie-prosecute-fired.html

Flynn is one of six Trump aides and associates charged in special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation into ties between the Russia and the 2016 Trump campaign.

He pleaded guilty in December 2017 to lying to the FBI about his conversations with the Russian ambassador during the presidential transition period and provided extensive cooperation to Mueller's team of investigators.

But Flynn now claims he did not lie and attempted to withdraw the guilty plea in January.

He alleges federal prosecutors acted in 'bad faith' and broke their end of the bargain when they sought prison time for him.

His attorneys are asking a federal judge to consider the new evidence as part of their request to withdraw his plea.

Flynn's lawyers Powell and Jesse Binnall have that the new material 'proves Mr. Flynn's allegations of having been deliberately set up and framed by corrupt agents at the top of the FBI.'

'The government has deliberately suppressed this evidence from the inception of this prosecution — knowing there was no crime by Mr. Flynn,' according to his lawyers.

Flynn has also accused his former attorneys from the law firm Covington & Burling of misleading him by allowing him to plead guilty in order to cover up its own errors.
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mmj_uk said:
Is this related to General Michael Flynn being set up by the FBI? it's a very similar ongoing case if not.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...lanned-Michael-Flynn-lie-prosecute-fired.html
Click to expand...

Not specifically, I have pondered on this one for a while but a recently reported UK case where somebody had remained in prison for nearly 50 years because he has always maintained his innocence made me think of it again.

If TV shows are anything to go by. The US deal is that if you do make a plea, you cant normally appeal it later, even if exonerating evidence becomes available.

(In my examples, I am considering some other way of establishing that the individual is innocent, such as an independent investigation establishing, without doubt, that somebody else was the perp)
 
Orionaut said:
Consider the situation.

#1 An innocent defendant pleads guilty as part of a favourable plea bargain (I am sure this happens a lot in the US)

#2 An innocent convict admits guilt to obtain parole/early release.

Consider the situation that in both cases the individual is subsequently shown to have been innocent.

Has anybody under these circumstances ever been charged with perjury (Or any other offense relating to making false statements)?

(And no, I am not asking on behalf of a Friend, or on my own behalf either. Just curious :D )
Click to expand...
This has become more of a problem in the UK since the Tory government brought in new laws about paying court fees if you plead not guilty and are found guilty. It might have changed now.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34993428
The criminal courts charge is to be scrapped from 24 December, Justice Secretary Michael Gove has announced.

Since April, convicted criminals in England and Wales have had to pay a charge of between £150 and £1,200 towards the cost of their case.

But Mr Gove said "while the intention behind the policy was honourable in reality that intent has fallen short".

MPs had called for it to be axed and the Magistrates Association said the decision was "tremendously welcome".

The charge is paid on top of fines, compensation orders and defendants' own legal charges, and is higher for those convicted after pleading not guilty.

It is set according to the type of case, with the minimum charge for magistrates' courts and the maximum level for crown court cases.

In March, the then Justice Secretary Chris Grayling said the fee would ensure that criminals "pay their way".

But MPs on the Justice Committee published a report in November in which they said the fee, which is not means-tested, created "serious problems" and was often "grossly disproportionate".

The cross-party group's chairman, Conservative MP Bob Neill, said they evidence they had received raised "grave misgivings" about the fee's benefits and whether it was "compatible with the principles of justice".

He said it created "perverse incentives - not only for defendants to plead guilty but for sentencers to reduce awards of compensation and prosecution costs".
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Orionaut said:
Not specifically, I have pondered on this one for a while but a recently reported UK case where somebody had remained in prison for nearly 50 years because he has always maintained his innocence made me think of it again.

If TV shows are anything to go by. The US deal is that if you do make a plea, you cant normally appeal it later, even if exonerating evidence becomes available.

(In my examples, I am considering some other way of establishing that the individual is innocent, such as an independent investigation establishing, without doubt, that somebody else was the perp)
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I think it is because you cant be paroled unless you accept responsibility and remorse for the crime.
 
A colleague of mine was accused of a crime and swore he was innocent and that he was going to clear his name. When it came down to the trial he actually plead guilty to a lesser (but still unpleasant) offence as allegedly he was offered a deal where doing this would avoid actual prison time, which he was facing if found guilty of the original charge. He was then upset when he was sacked from his job and couldn't seem to understand that you can't keep claiming that you are innocent and have done nothing wrong if you have plead guilty to a crime and been sentenced, even if you have managed to avoid going to prison.
 
DanielMMS said:
Perjury relates to statements made under oath. Since pleas are not entered under oath, perjury is not applicable.
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That's why I qualified the question with "any other offense relating to making false statements"

And, while I am not sure how it works in the UK, US TV dramas do imply that somebody making a plea in the US does have to make a statement to the court detailing their (Supposed) actions and I would have thought that this would be under oath or similar legal obligation to make a true statement.

My original question applies to both the US and the UK.
 
Orionaut said:
That's why I qualified the question with "any other offense relating to making false statements"

And, while I am not sure how it works in the UK, US TV dramas do imply that somebody making a plea in the US does have to make a statement to the court detailing their (Supposed) actions and I would have thought that this would be under oath or similar legal obligation to make a true statement.

My original question applies to both the US and the UK.
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The person you're replying to has more legal chops than you do so that may be worth considering.
 
Orionaut said:
Consider the situation.

#1 An innocent defendant pleads guilty as part of a favourable plea bargain (I am sure this happens a lot in the US)

#2 An innocent convict admits guilt to obtain parole/early release.

Consider the situation that in both cases the individual is subsequently shown to have been innocent.

Has anybody under these circumstances ever been charged with perjury (Or any other offense relating to making false statements)?
Click to expand...

I think whenever someone comes in to contact with the system its less about whether you did the crime but more what can be proven against you in a reasonable case.

If you are accused of a crime and admit you did it then you're guilty. I think thats how a police caution works. It's only if it can be proven that you were tricked in to confessing that your confession becomes unsafe. Though I think its a bit of a legal grey area as I'm not sure you can incriminate yourself? I'm not a legal person.

As for perjury, I guess it would depend on who approached who. Also if the CPS decide if its in the public interest to charge you with it.

A lot of laws in this country are very vague and allow discretion to be used.
 
BowdonUK said:
I think whenever someone comes in to contact with the system its less about whether you did the crime but more what can be proven against you in a reasonable case.

If you are accused of a crime and admit you did it then you're guilty. I think thats how a police caution works. It's only if it can be proven that you were tricked in to confessing that your confession becomes unsafe. Though I think its a bit of a legal grey area as I'm not sure you can incriminate yourself? I'm not a legal person.

As for perjury, I guess it would depend on who approached who. Also if the CPS decide if its in the public interest to charge you with it.

A lot of laws in this country are very vague and allow discretion to be used.
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This isnt really the question I am asking.

My point is that if you knowingly confess to committing a crime that you know you did not commit. Say, to avoid the expense (Win or lose! "He was found not guilty but the Ministry of Justice ruled he could afford his defence, and therefore couldn't receive tax-funded paybacks after the case. " :eek: )and risks of a harsher sentence should you go to trial

(And not for an illegal purpose like protecting a third party, like with swapping speeding ponits etc)

Can/are there any cases where the authorities have charged somebody with an offense if their "Guilty" plea is subsequently shown to be false (IE a Lie)
 
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