"Pay as you drive"

Nasher · 16 Nov 2020 at 15:59

M1k3H said:
Electric bike with some sort of roof, and perhaps a windshield to stop me getting wet.... something with wheels, a motor of some sort, and a surrounding structure....A car?

An electric Caterham

But build it as a kit so you can skip about 75% of the regulations and have the ultimate YOLO mobile.

tom_e · 16 Nov 2020 at 16:05

Haggisman said:
Pay per mile is a great idea. Make it cost the same as fuel duty would cost on a reasonable average MPG (I think I worked it out at ~5p/mile), and I don't see an issue with it - i.e. cost neutral for most people.

However £1.50/mile can **** right off. It would cost me ~£800/month just to get to work and back. I'd almost be better off quitting my job in software development and working as a shelf-stacker in the local supermarket.

In fact, coupled with the cost of childcare, I'd be better off just quitting work altogether to be a stay at home parent!

Bargain, I'd be at £750 pw! That's more than my take home.

AWPC · 16 Nov 2020 at 16:13

Pathetic idea! Any government who tries to force this through is looking at roughly 40M votes AGAINST them! Just leave it all alone you want to really save money go after cyclists, airlines & oil companies for starters then look at changing corporation tax to make it fairer all around should easily raise £40bn but who is to say petrol engines will not also make massive strides forwards with cleaner technology in years to come either! EV is still 15-20 years away from mainstream acceptance just leave petrol alone let it naturally progress.

Mysterae_ · 16 Nov 2020 at 16:19

dacads said:
Well they won’t make much with the new working from home trend

maybe they’ll implement a WFH tax to counteract

Some are considering it, it's a privilege you know.

If the ridiculous £1.50 a mile was serious I'd be paying £1,350 a month just to get to work. Then there is the concern about how they would implement it - satellite tracking, always online cars etc. The powers that be are really taking the fun out of things, governed by the stick, shafted by the carrot. They may as well stick a charging point up our arses and plug us in to the grid.

The Running Man · 16 Nov 2020 at 16:19

Yay let's charge people to get to work while China keeps growing. Smart

clv101 · 16 Nov 2020 at 16:22

Don't tax the roads, tax the energy, tax the existing transaction. With duty and VAT it's trivial, and works well.

But for EVs, how to tax the energy? An annual bill at MOT time? 10,000 miles ≈ 1500kWh, add say, 10p/kWh = £150?

Kenai · 16 Nov 2020 at 16:24

clv101 said:
Don't tax the roads, tax the energy, tax the existing transaction. With duty and VAT it's trivial, and works well.

But for EVs, how to tax the energy? An annual bill at MOT time? 10,000 miles ≈ 1500kWh, add say, 10p/kWh = £150?

It has to be at source, taxing based on MOT mileages will just see everyone buying mileage blockers.

Barks · 16 Nov 2020 at 16:27

Makes a lot more sense in densely populated cities where congestion/pollution is a major issue and many people drive for the sake of it. Makes no sense at all otherwise.

Nasher · 16 Nov 2020 at 16:47

Kenai said:
It has to be at source, taxing based on MOT mileages will just see everyone buying mileage blockers.

Same with tracking it via GPS etc, people will just block it and there is no effective way to enforce it.

They would have to have ANPR cameras along every single road which just isn't viable.

clv101 · 16 Nov 2020 at 16:56

Kenai said:
It has to be at source, taxing based on MOT mileages will just see everyone buying mileage blockers.

Yeah, so how best to tax electricity at source?

Kenai · 16 Nov 2020 at 16:57

Kenai said:
I'm sure with the introduction of smart meters and home chargers etc. the longer term end game is to be able to tax your electricity on a segregated basis for house vs car charger, to effectively replace the tax on fuel.

Those using loads of electricity because they drive 20,000 miles per year will pay more, just as they pay more fuel duty now. They can choose offset this by buying the most efficient vehicles available to them, just as they can now.

clv101 said:
Yeah, so how best to tax electricity at source?

I'll be amazed if this ability hadn't already been thought about in smart meters and home chargers.

mattyg · 16 Nov 2020 at 16:59

Haggisman said:
Pay per mile is a great idea. Make it cost the same as fuel duty would cost on a reasonable average MPG (I think I worked it out at ~5p/mile), and I don't see an issue with it - i.e. cost neutral for most people.

However £1.50/mile can **** right off.

My couriers cover over 14k Miles a night (£21000) between them. I'm sure my contracts would be happy to pay an extra £5.6 million a year

Iamzod · 16 Nov 2020 at 17:01

Nasher said:
Same with tracking it via GPS etc, people will just block it and there is no effective way to enforce it.

They would have to have ANPR cameras along every single road which just isn't viable.

You could have ANPR cameras which are mobile & cross reference the data from a GPRS tracker fitted to the vehicle with the GPS location of the camera van, if it's miles out you've tampered & get fined.

THat said, with how the government seems to handle IT projects, it'll be a disaster that simply falls on it's face most likely.

Iamzod · 16 Nov 2020 at 17:02

mattyg said:
My couriers cover over 14k Miles a night (£21000) between them. I'm sure my contracts would be happy to pay an extra £5.6 million a year

The article says it's from 2p to £1.50 dependent on roads & congestion, if it's overnight i'd imagine you'd be nearer the 2p end of the scale (£280).

Django x2 · 16 Nov 2020 at 17:04

[TW]Fox said:
It works in New Zealand.

I'm not sure using a NZ with a population density 18 times less than that of the UK is a valid argument here. It's the same as saying France do this on Autoroutes so it would work here. It wouldn't because the population trying to find alternative routes to avoid the autoroutes in France is significantly less than it would be in the UK.

rpmmatt · 16 Nov 2020 at 17:06

Joe T said:
It's generally understood in the EV world that the current economics are expected to change over time.

Yeah, wealthy early adopters get subsidised travel, and by the time poor people can afford second hand electrics, they've been priced off the road entirely.

mattyg said:
My couriers cover over 14k Miles a night (£21000) between them. I'm sure my contracts would be happy to pay an extra £5.6 million a year

The end consumers pay, as they always do, making the poor poorer.

Something like this is inevitible with the take up of EV's. Personally, I don't really object in principle, if other fuel taxes were abolished. What could be fairer paying for what you use? The devil as always will be in the detail, and I don't really trust the government to come up with a system that has any kind of nuance to how its run or costed.

With a road pricing scheme like this, you could really create a revolution of car use. Charge a higher tariff for a short journey or a journey at busy times. Say, a drive between 7:30am - 9:30am, of less than 2 miles is charged at 4 or 5 times the rate of a 50 or 60 mile journey done early morning or late evening. Everything could be pre priced using an app linked to google maps or the like, and it could tell you if you waited say 30 minutes your trip would cost less or more etc. It would certainly make me think whether to drive or walk, and while this is what is promised, more likely it will just be another crippling tax to pay for the more diversity coordinators in the local councils which produces no real world benefit to the roads, or the economy in general.

As for public transport, this is a game changer and needs rolling out nation wide. Even I would consider a short bus trip across town if it was responsive like this.

Jonnycoupe · 16 Nov 2020 at 17:07

[TW]Fox said:
Most car owners wouldn't use the bus if it was free.

Quick question OT.

Do you actually look like Will out of inbetweeners cos thats the only image i have in my head

Nasher · 16 Nov 2020 at 17:17

Iamzod said:
You could have ANPR cameras which are mobile & cross reference the data from a GPRS tracker fitted to the vehicle with the GPS location of the camera van, if it's miles out you've tampered & get fined.

THat said, with how the government seems to handle IT projects, it'll be a disaster that simply falls on it's face most likely.

That is WAY to complex for a government IT system. Plus would probably be a GDPR minefield.

Even after spending billions on it someone would have to run it, keep it up to date and fight constant hacking attempts. Someone like Serco or G4S, so it would still fail.

mattyg · 16 Nov 2020 at 17:19

Don't we already pay per mile. THose with bigger cars with bigger engines pay more and those that dont pay less. Aren't we already doing that

Just hike up the VAT on fuel a bit..

clv101 · 16 Nov 2020 at 17:43

mattyg said:
Don't we already pay per mile. THose with bigger cars with bigger engines pay more and those that dont pay less. Aren't we already doing that

Just hike up the VAT on fuel a bit..

Absolutely, fuel duty is an excellent tax. Very easy/cheap to collect, very hard to dodge, tightly correlated use, offers personal choice of driving a 20mpg car or 60mpg car etc. The only problem is that Tory governments have been cutting it in real terms for a decade with their duty freeze and that we need a new solution for EVs.