Is "affordable housing" a red herring when it comes to roughsleepers?

[d_brennen]

Because they aren't working for it tbh when they could.

They should be offered re-hab for free.

After re-hab they should then be housed in a publicly run business of sorts. given a job where their payment is a roof and three square meals. their work produces products which can then be sold to re-coup costs of re-hab and providing these meals and housing.

They are then free to stay there so long as they work and stick to the rules (no drugs, etc). The idea being that they use this experience to find a paying job and move out into the real world again.

Basically a full rehabilitation.

This is a good idea but massively expensive. It's unlikely there's any "work" people in this hypothetical system could do to even partially cover it.

When there is no money to support people with problems on the edge where is the untold money going to come from for your grand scheme?

Sad fact is that society just does not care enough about down and outs for anything meaningful to happen

 

[Psycho Sonny]

He's right though, there's no answer to the problem (at least not easy). It's hardly humane for a western society to be forcing homeless addicts into therapy in order for them to beat their addiction. Not to mention i thought one of the key rules to beating addiction was the willingness to want to beat the addiction. Again, if people don't want to be helped, then forcing them through therapy is a waste of time too.

if all they want is to get high then they should all be shipped to a small island where they can do just that without ruining everyone elses lives.

by not forcing them off the drug all you are doing is helping drug dealers indirectly. the more money to be made in the market the more aggressive their tactics are. get rid of the druggies and you solve a lot of the problems that come along with them.

also the strain on the police, nhs, etc.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

This is a good idea but massively expensive. It's unlikely there's any "work" people in this hypothetical system could do to even partially cover it.

When there is no money to support people with problems on the edge where is the untold money going to come from for your grand scheme?

Sad fact is that society just does not care enough about down and outs for anything meaningful to happen

plenty of work. making stuff out of reclaimed wood for one.

all you need are tools - one off cost.

then they can make garden furniture. those that aren't good at woodwork should be good at sanding and painting, etc.

plus all the wood would be free as it's reclaimed. how many people in the UK would like cheap wooden garden furniture for instance?

that's just one idea off the top of my head within 10 seconds. i'm sure i could have 10 more by the end of the day if i could be bothered.

 

[Things change I've changed]

Because they aren't working for it tbh when they could.

They should be offered re-hab for free.

After re-hab they should then be housed in a publicly run business of sorts. given a job where their payment is a roof and three square meals. their work produces products which can then be sold to re-coup costs of re-hab and providing these meals and housing.

They are then free to stay there so long as they work and stick to the rules (no drugs, etc). The idea being that they use this experience to find a paying job and move out into the real world again.

Basically a full rehabilitation.

Ok, so these people should be put into strict work houses to pay for their own rehabilitation then?, non compliance and back on the streets again, same problem fantastic.

Why on earth are we so scared to give anything anyway for free to help people because it might hurt joe public's feelings, I would much rather contrate on my own life and appreciate my health and wellbeing than worry about some poor homeless person getting a bedsit and food for free, ultimately if there was a proper safety net in this country it would benefit society as a whole.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Ok, so these people should be put into strict work houses to pay for their own rehabilitation then?, non compliance and back on the streets again, same problem.

Why on earth are we so scared to give anything anyway for free to help people because it might hurt joe public's feelings, I would much rather contrate on my own life and appreciate my health and wellbeing than worry about some poor homeless person getting a bedsit and food for free.

it's not free though is it. it costs us more in taxes and then you have all the associated problems, drug dealers, prostitution, hiv, robberies, etc. they should pay for it themselves.

or just pay for a 1 way ticket to afghanistan. they can have all the heroin they want for free as they have fields beyond the eye can see full of them.

there is a reason why the chinese emperor banned opium when the british used it for trading for silk. he saw what it was doing to his country. you don't tackle the problem by giving them more comfort so they can spend the rest of their life living it up high out of their minds.

 

[Dolph]

The reason we have rough sleeping is, much like many other things, because we have forgotten that choices have consequences, or at least, have divorced the two in many scenarios.

The question is, how much consequence are we willing to allow in order to give people free choice irrespective of whether they are capable and willing to make good choices or not.

 

[josh_sheffield]

Had recent experience of homelessness with a friend who suffers from mental health problems and has had a tough time in the last year or two for various reasons. Its a joke how little is done by councils to help and how long it would take to get social housing.

Plus how is someone supposed to rent privately in that situation? Yes there is housing benefit but this can only be claimed once you are in the property. I ended up helping him out with deposit, fees and first months rent. Making little changes to the system and making benefits claimable before and banning stupidly high fees would make such a difference.

 

[Semple]

Had recent experience of homelessness with a friend who suffers from mental health problems and has had a tough time in the last year or two for various reasons. Its a joke how little is done by councils to help and how long it would take to get social housing.

Plus how is someone supposed to rent privately in that situation? Yes there is housing benefit but this can only be claimed once you are in the property. I ended up helping him out with deposit, fees and first months rent. Making little changes to the system and making benefits claimable before and banning stupidly high fees would make such a difference.

I'm not a landlord, but I've seen on plenty of shows etc that a tenant on benefits has stopped paying for rent and ends up costing the landlord thousands to evict them. Enough landlords have been stung by this to create a stigma with benefit tenants than most private landlords won't touch them with a bargepole.

I'm personally of the belief that if you're on benefits you shouldn't be allowed to manage your benefit money. The council should pay the landlord directly to prevent the tenant from spending it elsewhere. Food etc can be supplied via prepaid vouchers.

Frankly anyone who's actually in need of financial support would hardly turn the above down. The idea then is when they're able to stand on their own two feet and keep a job they can learn to manage their own money.

 

[Tefal]

I'm not a landlord, but I've seen on plenty of shows etc that a tenant on benefits has stopped paying for rent and ends up costing the landlord thousands to evict them. Enough landlords have been stung by this to create a stigma with benefit tenants than most private landlords won't touch them with a bargepole.

I'm personally of the belief that if you're on benefits you shouldn't be allowed to manage your benefit money. The council should pay the landlord directly to prevent the tenant from spending it elsewhere. Food etc can be supplied via prepaid vouchers.

Frankly anyone who's actually in need of financial support would hardly turn the above down. The idea then is when they're able to stand on their own two feet and keep a job they can learn to manage their own money.

I thought housing benefit did go directly to lamdlords

 

[Semple]

I thought housing benefit did go directly to lamdlords

I think some councils will do this if they know for sure a claimant is at risk of not paying their rent.

I think the bulk are given the benefit of doubt in being trusted to pay the rent. It's just unfortunate that a few have ruined it for the rest and now you see lots of complaints of people struggle to find accommodation because landlords don't feel they can quite trust benefit claimants.

 

[Dolph]

I thought housing benefit did go directly to lamdlords

Certainly not under universal credit. One of the problems identified with doing it is that it does t teach people good habits such as Budgeting if they don't have to do it. Additionally housing benefit often doesn't cover the full cost.

The problem is compounded as the courts are powerless to enforce repayment, and the first response of those evicted is to demand the council rehouse them because they are homeless...

It leads back to my point earlier, at what point should freedom to make decisions be lost, and why are people insulated so heavily from the consequences of their choices.

 

[bayo000]

Is Manchester a tourist hot spot lol?

My office is pretty much next to coach station and the amount of tour busses arriving in the mornings is surprising. Mostly Chinese tourists but still.

 

[Semple]

My office is pretty much next to coach station and the amount of tour busses arriving in the mornings is surprising. Mostly Chinese tourists but still.

Yep i would say Manchester is fairly "touristy". I rarely venture into the centre myself (anytime we need to go shopping we always use the Trafford Centre). But anytime i have been in the centre it's normally packed.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Had recent experience of homelessness with a friend who suffers from mental health problems and has had a tough time in the last year or two for various reasons. Its a joke how little is done by councils to help and how long it would take to get social housing.

Plus how is someone supposed to rent privately in that situation? Yes there is housing benefit but this can only be claimed once you are in the property. I ended up helping him out with deposit, fees and first months rent. Making little changes to the system and making benefits claimable before and banning stupidly high fees would make such a difference.

it's to stop fraud. if the didn't do it that way there would be thousands of fraudulent applications.

 

[Pocah]

Certainly not under universal credit. One of the problems identified with doing it is that it does t teach people good habits such as Budgeting if they don't have to do it. Additionally housing benefit often doesn't cover the full cost.

The problem is compounded as the courts are powerless to enforce repayment, and the first response of those evicted is to demand the council rehouse them because they are homeless...

It leads back to my point earlier, at what point should freedom to make decisions be lost, and why are people insulated so heavily from the consequences of their choices.

I have heard some rubbish in my time but the concept that paying rent directly to the claimant in some way teaches them something is either extremely patronising or shows an almost unbelievable disconnect with the real world... probably both.

Look, all this is very simple. Some people just need a helping hand in life. Do we live in a caring society or a selfish one? Do we help them or let them suffer and die? Sure, some people will take advantage of a caring system but not many. For some reason, though, people seem to highlight the few and make a right song and dance about them. Stop thinking about the few and think about the deserving many that we can all help.

House prices have been completely out of control since the late eighties and successive Labour and Conservative governments have failed to do anything about it. Probably due to the fact that some 40% of MP's are landlords, so they benefited from the price increases, but the rest of us have lost out. Unless you can actually sell your house and go spend the profit or you rent your house out then you really don't see any benefit from the increases. On the contrary we are now in the sorry state that many young people on or below an average wage will never afford a house. You can not just tell these people that there is no future for you, get a better job ( many of them just can't ) , or go live on the streets! I mean it's just inhuman to say that to millions of prospective couples. What the government really need to do is put legislation in place to stop house prices dead in their tracks and allow inflation to bring the prices to "affordable" again. I know that will take decades but if we don't do anything it will just continue to get worse.

 

[LeeUK]

Problem started when they started selling council housing off. Then further when councils sold all remaining stock to greedy housing associations who are only interested in lining the pockets of their top exec team.

 

[alchal]

Problem started when they started selling council housing off. Then further when councils sold all remaining stock to greedy housing associations who are only interested in lining the pockets of their top exec team.

Housing associations are horrendous, nightmare to get them to fix anything and if they do (neighbours tiles falling onto my path/drive, took them almost 2 years)...well I reckon a 2 year old could do a better job when they finally got around to it.
Also next doors soil pipe underground leaked into my back garden, had to get my insurance out to claim against them despite my neighbours saying it's clearly theirs ant telling the association to come fix/check as well as myself.

My estate has a mix of private/council and association houses, the worst ones are the association, council have done all the roofs etc on all theirs but the association ones are literally falling to bits.

Also I find zero hours and agencies that put people onto endless contracts that re new every year as a get out clause (HSBC!) As a problem as well for people attempting to get some kind of stable income to even rent.

 

[Energize]

Two year thread necro, nice.

If the homeless had free housing and bills completely paid for it wouldn't make a difference, these are people with drug or mental health problems and are not capable of living by or looking after themselves.

 

[SPG]

Then build some 1940s style POW camps basic food, basic lodgings and social workers instead of guards.

The problem is out of hand and you can trace it all the way back to Thatcher

 

[Frenzy]

As someone who got to a point in life where I did not care about a thing, you are right. They need mental support just as much as housing. If they just had housing all they would do is rot in the prison of their own mind. Saying that, a comfortable safe place is all some people need to recharge.

Universal credit is a joke. They only pay full rent if you live in a council house which leads to the problem of finding a council house which may take a while and living in an area where opportunities are few. Go the private landlord route and they give you half the rent. When I was on UC after my last contract ended I had no savings because I was paid so little. That UC payment went straight into bills, nothing left over for food except thouse 20p noodle packets from the supermarket. The support given is just enough to not die, people in that situation lose hope quickly.