How can councils justify this?

My working life spans almost 40 years and its split almost 50 / 50 private sector / local government.
I've heard those terms aimed at people from both sectors and having been on both sides of the fence I can confirm that they apply to both.
It does seem that its one sector that applies the terms to the other and vice versa.

I think the key differentiating factor is accountability. In the private sector, particularly consulting, profit margins are painfully low. Business is sensitive to even just a handful
of staff on overheads so productivity and performance are personal KPIs. The same doesn’t apply for the public sector. In my experience across the private consulting sector, laziness, entitlement and incompetence mean a very short tenure. Clearly, above the glass floor of management this behaviours are seen and can sometimes be ignored, but often people tend to get chased off to a new role in their next company. Always good for business as they then become a net detractor from your competitor.
 
Unless I'm missing something, aren't Councils required by law to give the contract to the lowest bigger that meets the requirements? A Thatcher policy I seem to remember? The fact that the bidder lies to get the contract then tries to get more money later is hardly unique to Local Councils either: that's why the last East Coast Main Line contract went under, and why Circle abandoned the first privately-run hospital in England (Hinchingbrooke)
 
Unless I'm missing something, aren't Councils required by law to give the contract to the lowest bigger that meets the requirements?

Absolutely not, our council have a scoring matrix 60/40 quality/price and 20 % of the 60 is social value.
 
Oh you though I was saying all councils were going to new Orleans. No, I only meant that one.

You were making a wider point anyway. Don't try and back away from that. It's a classic I'll be vague and let people infer what I want them to infer.

You should be a daily mail headline writer using plausible deniability.

If you wanted it to be a dig at a single council, then you would have been more explicit.
 
Absolutely not, our council have a scoring matrix 60/40 quality/price and 20 % of the 60 is social value.
Well it must vary. I remember looking at the criteria that specifically stated it was heavily weighted on price.
 
At work we had 3 tenders for some work.
Firm a was 110k
Firm b was 125k
Firm c was 100k

They were asked to submit again.

A then was 105k
B was 115k
C was 95k

They went with b, even though they was consistently higher. The reason was they offered a bigger discount.

Bean counters get more credit for getting larger discount on the job.
 
companies are contracted to do a job which they obviously aren't capable of and costs end up more than originally predicted.
That sums it up for my local council, especially with the bin collection.
Apologies for the late reply Ive only just joined OCF
 
I had a brief job at the local county council about 7 years ago and we wanted to buy some personalised stationary from Amazon.

We were not allowed to do this as Amazon was not on the procurement approved list, with the next cheapest company being much more expensive - IIRC more than twice as expensive.

Its hard to believe that the council haven't followed the procurement policies, which they are legally obliged to do. Councils are built on bureaucracy and this is the reason why they are not competitive with private enterprise and appear very expensive for the services that they provide.

Perhaps this mayhem is what happens if you get rid of the expensive procurement department? Surely it'll be much more expensive to run two procurements for when this chap inevitable fails, but as mentioned above, it's not their money so they don't care!
 
Let’s be honest here, they’re just incompetent from the top down.

It should be ran like a business and it’d get things done a lot better rather than wasting money left right and centre.

i heard stupid **** that happens all the time with my local council - know people who work there and people who work for companies who do their work.

Its similar to getting a plumber in to do painting and a painter to do the plumbing.
 
I had a brief job at the local county council about 7 years ago and we wanted to buy some personalised stationary from Amazon.

We were not allowed to do this as Amazon was not on the procurement approved list, with the next cheapest company being much more expensive - IIRC more than twice as expensive.

Its hard to believe that the council haven't followed the procurement policies, which they are legally obliged to do. Councils are built on bureaucracy and this is the reason why they are not competitive with private enterprise and appear very expensive for the services that they provide.

Perhaps this mayhem is what happens if you get rid of the expensive procurement department? Surely it'll be much more expensive to run two procurements for when this chap inevitable fails, but as mentioned above, it's not their money so they don't care!
I'm all for bashing incompetence in public sector, but...why did you want to buy personalised stationary in a council environment? Already feels like you were part of the problem.

You understand that the price you pay, in a centralised procurement model, may not be the price the company ultimately pays with centralised rebates or kickbacks? Part of the pricing is to make you think twice as to whether you need a pencil with your name on.
 
You do realise this is a 2+ year old necrothread...
No. But I do now. And feel silly. As I made a point earlier in my posting life about how obvious it was to spot a necro.

Damnit.

Edit: And it is even the same moron new poster who is necro-ing. Deffo a bot to hate on councils.
 
Let’s be honest here, they’re just incompetent from the top down.

It should be ran like a business and it’d get things done a lot better rather than wasting money left right and centre.

i heard stupid **** that happens all the time with my local council - know people who work there and people who work for companies who do their work.

Its similar to getting a plumber in to do painting and a painter to do the plumbing.
You think this hasn't been tried?

Heh. Of course it's been tried. And so has outsourcing and everything else you can think of in under 5 seconds, because you think it's so obvious.

It's all been done. Most of it badly because it doesn't work!

Providing public services is not and should not be a profit-making enterprise. Private companies running services just look for ways to provide (less than) the absolute minimum for the absolute maximum (pee taking) they can get away with. They don't care if your roads are full of potholes or your street lighting doesn't work or anything else you might care about (as a resident or a user of a council service). They will just seek to maximise returns and if you don't like it, too bad!

Using for-profit business models in the public sector doesn't automatically increase efficiency either. Instead you can end up with all sorts of stupidity, like depts. billing themselves for all work done by their own staff; prioritising non-essential work that can be billed at a higher rate than other work (etc). That way madness can also lie.

And as for outsourcing.. find me a council that hasn't tried to outsource just about everything at *least* once already. And then had to take whatever it was back in house some years later, when the outsourcing a) ended up costing more and b) provided a worse (or completely failed) service.

Listen, I *know* you all hate the councils and think we are the laziest, most useless, most expensive workers in this country. So it's crazy when people come in and actually *try* all this "transformational" nonsense that I mentioned; it's funny when all too often it fails to deliver any improvement. Or things plain get worse.

Probably many of you have such a low opinion because you don't have experience of the public sector; you just hate the "wastefulness" because of some anecdote somebody told you about. As @Angillion already said, show me the country where private sector businesses never have inefficiencies or incompetence. That's just humans doing humans.

In general, councils are pretty damn good at what they do, and the people who work there are trying - in very difficult conditions now with all the funding cuts - to provide services to a (generally) ungrateful public. You're welcome.
 
When times get tough you always get cubicle dwelling private sector workers trying to snipe. Get back to your spreadsheet, Karen/Kevin :p
 
I guess they missed collecting Mr klang's bins today, hence the nonsense rant.

And as for outsourcing.. find me a council that hasn't tried to outsource just about everything at *least* once already. And then had to take whatever it was back in house some years later, when the outsourcing a) ended up costing more and b) provided a worse (or completely failed) service.

Generally our local council won't and keep 95% of stuff in house. The one exception was ....

*Cough* Carillion *Cough*

Cost my local council a fortune. Cost the other partner in the joint venture for facilities management a fortune. Cost central government a fortune mopping up the mess they left behind. A lot of the staff were subcontractors, and they got screwed as well as most were getting paid 60 days in arrears, if at all. One guy on a project I was involved with hadn't been paid in 4 months, yet was still coming to work while taking legal action against them just to get what he was owed. That was over 12 months before they went bump.

In general, councils are pretty damn good at what they do, and the people who work there are trying - in very difficult conditions now with all the funding cuts - to provide services to a (generally) ungrateful public. You're welcome.

Couldn't agree more. The older generations who assume the public sector are working in a 1970s time warp, need their heads examining and their blinkers removing.

There's one thing that needs to be kept in mind. The public sector is never going to be the cheapest as it's not a streamlined business with all the cost taken out aiming to provide a return to shareholders. It's there to provide the best service it can for as little money as possible. Your local council does 1001 different things, most of them under prescriptive legislation where someone's head is on the block for any failures. From filling potholes to getting my aunt out of bed in the morning and giving her a bath to translation services for people that can't speak English to teaching your kids to installing street lights to building inspections ... all while collecting your bins and dealing with all the recycling. The IT department doesn't support about three key applications - they've got hundreds.

So give them a break. They're not a workshy bunch of layabouts. The last of them retired on gold plated pensions back in 2011.
 
I'm all for bashing incompetence in public sector, but...why did you want to buy personalised stationary in a council environment? Already feels like you were part of the problem.

You understand that the price you pay, in a centralised procurement model, may not be the price the company ultimately pays with centralised rebates or kickbacks? Part of the pricing is to make you think twice as to whether you need a pencil with your name on.

The term "personalised" is inaccurate and would better be described as marketing material. We were setting up a department that would commercialise some of the services that the council provides, so giving out pens at trade shows seemed like a sensible idea.

IIRC part of the reason for the difference in cost was that the price included the costs associated with the procurement department (salary, overheads etc). Regardless, insisting upon a provider who is much more expensive is very silly - especially when the risk is nonexistent and the capital outlay so low.
 
Sounds like a poor tender process, ours has multiple criteria which applicants score on, of which only one is pricing.

This. Thats how all tenders I have been involved in are done. We once won the biggest contract in the companies history for millions despite been the highest bidder as we scored the highest on the tender pack questions, company assessment and the presentation to the board of directors.

I do feel sorry for some councils though and the rules they have to follow. Due to a local road on a steep hill over the river collapsing the council closed one side of the road and put temporary traffic lights in.

They also compulsory purchased a chunk of farm land and fenced it off ready to move the road further away from the drop.

But apparently they dont have the money to actually move the road so we have now been renting temporary traffic lights for 20 years and allegedly this is only beaten by some temporary traffic lights in Cambridge which have been there for 22 years.

There were reports that the temporary traffic lights are costing £10k per annum so we have "wasted" £200k because the council isnt allowed to borrow the money needed to move the road.
 
Last edited:
Let’s be honest here, they’re just incompetent from the top down.

It should be ran like a business and it’d get things done a lot better rather than wasting money left right and centre.

i heard stupid **** that happens all the time with my local council - know people who work there and people who work for companies who do their work.

Its similar to getting a plumber in to do painting and a painter to do the plumbing.

Businesses objective is profit for the people at the top generally, I can assure you, running a government like a business is a terrible idea. Look how Donald Trump worked out.
 
as in if i wanted to buy a USB headset i have to use a specific company. i can't just go to any pc shop or amazon. regardless of if the list is 10 times as expensive.

...and you can't see a headset in their (limited) online catalogue thats suitable, so the only option is to ring them up to see if you can source a suitable product for you, they ask for an example of a suitable headset, you link them to amazon as an example. They then supply at 10x the price of amazon, after ordering it off your link.....
 
Back
Top Bottom