Air Source Heat Pump Questions...

Blooo

Blooo

Blooo

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I'm looking at moving house, and the kind of properties look to be older, remote properties so quite often have no gas heating. It seems logical that an air source heat pump will be an effective and useful option to install in such a property.

Is there any 'all in one' air source heating system that will heat water, central heating and 'cooling' like air conditioning?

I'd like to where possible avoid multiple outdoor boxes.

Also I assume that air source heat pumps also 'air condition' for cooling purposes?
 
The unit is just the same as an air conditioning unit but wired so it will only produce heat for central heating and hot water. It is part of a government scheme on renewable energy so you go through a process to establish what you would use in other forms of energy and then pay you every 3 months for 7years(at least that's how mine works. You have to fill in a form online aswell every year to confirm everything is still running the same. I get back roughly the same back as I would have had to pay out on gas.
 
I just saw an episode of 'This Old House' where they installed a fancy heat pump combined with geothermal that did all you're asking about. However the cost for installation alone had to exceed $60k, maybe more. So not really an option for most people.

Also, living in the southern US where heat pumps are the standard for residential I can tell you that I wouldn't have one in a cold climate, unless is was some high tech very efficient model, they're expensive to use for heat. Thankfully our winters here are very short and very mild.
 
BlueMerle said:
I just saw an episode of 'This Old House' where they installed a fancy heat pump combined with geothermal that did all you're asking about. However the cost for installation alone had to exceed $60k, maybe more. So not really an option for most people.

Also, living in the southern US where heat pumps are the standard for residential I can tell you that I wouldn't have one in a cold climate, unless is was some high tech very efficient model, they're expensive to use for heat. Thankfully our winters here are very short and very mild.
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We've got a neighbour with air source heat pump - doesn't rate it, couple of neighbours have ground source ones and are more positive.

When we moved in here a couple of years ago there was some scheme that would have covered 2/3rds of the setup/installation cost but I can't really remember details.
 
Rroff said:
We've got a neighbour with air source heat pump - doesn't rate it, couple of neighbours have ground source ones and are more positive.

When we moved in here a couple of years ago there was some scheme that would have covered 2/3rds of the setup/installation cost but I can't really remember details.
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Wasn't familiar with the term 'ground source heat pump' but google tells me it's what I talked about in my earlier post. We call it 'geothermal heat pump' :shrug:

I'm curious though, here in the states they're crazy expensive and I'm not aware of any rebates or tax credits for them. ( Solar is a different story)

How deep to they go down in the UK? Here it can be 3 to 4 hundred feet. And that's costly.
 
BlueMerle said:
Wasn't familiar with the term 'ground source heat pump' but google tells me it's what I talked about in my earlier post. We call it 'geothermal heat pump' :shrug:

I'm curious though, here in the states they're crazy expensive and I'm not aware of any rebates or tax credits for them. ( Solar is a different story)

How deep to they go down in the UK? Here it can be 3 to 4 hundred feet. And that's costly.
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I live in a rural area which has various schemes and things related to renewal energy and environment friendly stuff, etc. I don't really know too much detail. There is also a national scheme "renewable heat incentive" which pays based on amount generated or whatever. I've not really looked into it much as we just updated the old oil fired system instead in the end (far too much ifs and maybes and waiting for acceptance, etc. stuff on the schemes)
 
Blooo said:
I'm looking at moving house, and the kind of properties look to be older, remote properties so quite often have no gas heating. It seems logical that an air source heat pump will be an effective and useful option to install in such a property.

Is there any 'all in one' air source heating system that will heat water, central heating and 'cooling' like air conditioning?

I'd like to where possible avoid multiple outdoor boxes.

Also I assume that air source heat pumps also 'air condition' for cooling purposes?
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Typical heat hump systems don’t air condition because in the U.K. they tend to use ‘wet systems’ which tap into underfloor pipes or radiators to distribute heat. For them to also air condition you need a forced air system which ducts heating and cooling via air vents or separate A/C units. Most U.K. homes aren’t set up for that.

In terms of installing one, you need to have a highly insulated house. That means floors, walls, ceilings, lofts, doors and windows all need to be insulated to a modern standard. That can be challenging but not impossible in an older house and the heat pump should be last on the list. You also need to deal with humidity control once you have sealed up the house, that will likely mean also installing something like a heat recovery ventilator.

Heat pumps need this because they run at a much lower temperature compared to what a boiler is capable of meaning you can’t just dump heat into a house to overcome the drafts.

Id suggest doing a lot of research before buying a system, they are a viable solution but they are not the slap it in and call it good solutions for most properties as some people will make out.

Also ground and water source are better than air. Bir is by far the cheapest to install but it’s still more than a fossil system currently.
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
Typical heat hump systems don’t air condition because in the U.K. they tend to use ‘wet systems’ which tap into underfloor pipes or radiators to distribute heat. For them to also air condition you need a forced air system which ducts heating and cooling via air vents or separate A/C units. Most U.K. homes aren’t set up for that.

In terms of installing one, you need to have a highly insulated house. That means floors, walls, ceilings, lofts, doors and windows all need to be insulated to a modern standard. That can be challenging but not impossible in an older house and the heat pump should be last on the list. You also need to deal with humidity control once you have sealed up the house, that will likely mean also installing something like a heat recovery ventilator.

Heat pumps need this because they run at a much lower temperature compared to what a boiler is capable of meaning you can’t just dump heat into a house to overcome the drafts.

Id suggest doing a lot of research before buying a system, they are a viable solution but they are not the slap it in and call it good solutions for most properties as some people will make out.

Also ground and water source are better than air. Bir is by far the cheapest to install but it’s still more than a fossil system currently.
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I find it interesting that there's such a global push go renewable/green energy yet the economics and incentives just aren't there yet for the 'average' homeowner to make the switch. Hopefully all that changes soon.

I am aware of one housing development near Austin TX. that put in a neighborhood geothermal system with lines running to every house before ground was broken for a single house. (It's all but impossible to get a drill rig to an existing home.) As part of the mortgage some small portion from each homeowner goes to the developer for the expense and maintenance of the system.

I think that's a good solution for now. But that's the only development I'm aware of.
 
It’s much much much easier and cheaper to build something from scratch to utilise a heat hump than it is to retrofit. The additional expense is pocket change on the total cost of a property.

Making them the only option for new homes is sensible, retrofitting them to older properties is challenging.
 
When we built our house from scratch in 2015 i looked into all the options, i really wanted to go air source/ground source as it looks like the future and was green but no one would say anything good about air source locally. Everyone said it cost a fortune and didn't produce enough heat even in new builds so i dread to think what they'd be like in older houses.

Also they only really work if you've got underfloor heating everywhere as they run much cooler than a traditional boiler so that's another huge cost on top.

As for ground source the quotes i got for £lol, it'd take me a hundred years to have been worthwhile :(

In the end i ended up going for an LPG gas combi boiler and a tank buried in the garden as like you there's no mains gas anywhere near these parts, not as green as i wanted but it was the only viable option really. With it being a brand new house with very good insulation it doesn't cost that much in gas per year, maybe £800-1000 depending on how cold the winter was. At those prices it'd take a damn long time for anything else to pay for itself.

I think LPG works out at roughly double the cost of mains gas when i was working it out when we got it, still a lot cheaper than electric.
 
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We had two quotes done for our 3500 square foot house. It needs no new radiators as they are already oversized and is as insulated as it is possible to get. Were quoted £13000-£14000 by the two companies (both local to us) for monoblock unit and new hot water cylinder. I thought that was absolutely ridiculous, as it is, according to the engineers who came to measure and complete survey, an easy installation.

I think the main issue is that they use the government payments to make it seem like a good deal, rather than just quoting for the real cost of supply and installation. We don't pay much for oil as thew house is so well insulated and unless something happens to or boiler there is no way I would pay for a heat pump. For interest, the saving we would make, based on present oil usage and compared to new electricity costs, was £78.00 a year. I think they were slightly embarrassed when that figure popped up after all the flannel about savings over oil/gas, etc.

I don't think that, unless you are building or renovating a house, that air source heat pumps are a financially worth it at present.
 
The new build we're moving into in June (hopefully) has an air source pump for heating and water; but radiators only and no underfloor heating unfortunately. I've heard and read mixed results - old draughty houses struggle with them and they cost a fortune whereas newer, well insulated buildings seem to do okay. It also seems to be very dependent on how well they're setup. If the delta temperatures aren't set realistically then an immersion heater kicks in an awful lot and that's what drives the price up.

If I remember, I'll try and update with running costs once I've been in for a few months! System is, from memory, a Mitsubishi Ecodan so they've been around a while.
 
bJN said:
The new build we're moving into in June (hopefully) has an air source pump for heating and water; but radiators only and no underfloor heating unfortunately. I've heard and read mixed results - old draughty houses struggle with them and they cost a fortune whereas newer, well insulated buildings seem to do okay. It also seems to be very dependent on how well they're setup. If the delta temperatures aren't set realistically then an immersion heater kicks in an awful lot and that's what drives the price up.

If I remember, I'll try and update with running costs once I've been in for a few months! System is, from memory, a Mitsubishi Ecodan so they've been around a while.
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That's odd. Heat pumps work really well with underfloor heating because heat pumps can't heat water up to about 70C, which is where most people are flowing to their radiators. UFH requires a much lower temperature to operate so UFH and heat pumps are generally a really good pairing. Hopefully you have a boiler which will top the temps up a little bit.

Mitsubishi Ecodans are supposed to be pretty good - we sell them at work and we only sell premium kit.
 
dirtychinchilla said:
That's odd. Heat pumps work really well with underfloor heating because heat pumps can't heat water up to about 70C, which is where most people are flowing to their radiators. UFH requires a much lower temperature to operate so UFH and heat pumps are generally a really good pairing. Hopefully you have a boiler which will top the temps up a little bit.

Mitsubishi Ecodans are supposed to be pretty good - we sell them at work and we only sell premium kit.
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Yeah my understanding is the same, UFH is the way to go. Unfortunately the developer we're buying from has opted to go the other route with oversizing radiators to try and offset the difference. No boiler to speak of (no gas connection) but as above, immersion heater is there to kick-in for top-ups. Undoubtedly I'll have a good play around with the different settings on the controller units and try and find a good balance.
 
bJN said:
Yeah my understanding is the same, UFH is the way to go. Unfortunately the developer we're buying from has opted to go the other route with oversizing radiators to try and offset the difference. No boiler to speak of (no gas connection) but as above, immersion heater is there to kick-in for top-ups. Undoubtedly I'll have a good play around with the different settings on the controller units and try and find a good balance.
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That's the Scandinavian way of doing things, and they tend to know what they're done. So probably not oversizing, but appropriately sizing :)
 
So many politicians understanding so little making bad decisions made by people with an angle, and you don't even have to be particularly well educated to see the errors in the 'thinking'.

Einstein, The First Law of Thermodynamics (Conservation) states that energy is always conserved, it cannot be created or destroyed. In essence, energy can be converted from one form into another.

Heat pumps are sold to silly politicians in the same way electric cars are, no pollution at the exhaust therefore there is no pollution, and because they are so uneducated in basic physics they believe this lie.
All that happens of course is that the pollution is moved to somewhere else instead. There are issues with the generating losses, transmission losses and inefficiency of the heat pump which gets massively worse as the outside temperature becomes colder.

It's not the only issue though A car charger for an electric car takes 32A There are 2.5 million new registrations every year 19.2 GW of load in year one 38.4 in year two and so on. Just to keep up with electric cars we would need to triple if not quadruple generating capacity, and there doesn't appear to be plans to increase it significantly if at all.

Heat pump current is also around 40 Amps, and they are proposed to go into every new build. With all this extra new load where is the extra capacity?
 
Flake87 said:
So many politicians understanding so little making bad decisions made by people with an angle, and you don't even have to be particularly well educated to see the errors in the 'thinking'.

Einstein, The First Law of Thermodynamics (Conservation) states that energy is always conserved, it cannot be created or destroyed. In essence, energy can be converted from one form into another.

Heat pumps are sold to silly politicians in the same way electric cars are, no pollution at the exhaust therefore there is no pollution, and because they are so uneducated in basic physics they believe this lie.
All that happens of course is that the pollution is moved to somewhere else instead. There are issues with the generating losses, transmission losses and inefficiency of the heat pump which gets massively worse as the outside temperature becomes colder.

It's not the only issue though A car charger for an electric car takes 32A There are 2.5 million new registrations every year 19.2 GW of load in year one 38.4 in year two and so on. Just to keep up with electric cars we would need to triple if not quadruple generating capacity, and there doesn't appear to be plans to increase it significantly if at all.

Heat pump current is also around 40 Amps, and they are proposed to go into every new build. With all this extra new load where is the extra capacity?
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So you are proposing to continue burning old dinosaurs? Or maybe, with increased (and guaranteed demand) investment in green energy is a whole lot less risky and 'faddy'? :confused:
 
I installed an ASHP in my 1880’s built house in 2014 with a mix of radiators and UFH during a complete renovation.

Insulation is important but some of the horror stories are a mixture of bad installs, bad quality units and people not knowing how they should be run, so literally worst case scenarios.

We run everything on electric and my DD is £92 a month and I’m always in credit - in summer bills are sub £60.

The biggest issue for me has always been the noise of the outdoor unit, if I was doing it again I would site it further away.
 
There's been a few threads about heat pumps and the like, the general consensus is that they are expensive install especially retrospectively, expensive to run if not properly conceived, designed, maintained and installed. They don't suit every home.

I'm waiting for things to reopen so I can get a survey done for ground source heat pump but I think it's unlikely due to the changes required to the house.

Shame we're not connected to the hydrogen network:

 
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