Trading the stockmarket (NO Referrals)

Ofc, but how do you know when others are selling and buying. It seems too simplistic in some ways, are people that dumb that they haven't asked these questions that I'm asking. When they start losing money do they not ask these question "how do the pros do it?" or do they just quit trading and another person comes in and fills their spot?

Are you saying there's a constant stream of new traders coming in and losing money while the more clued up people sit and snipe their money?

Retail traders are typically caught out by either being scared, or greedy. They get scared when a position moves against them, panic, sell and liquidate losses. They get greedy when a position moves their way, and instead of banking the profit and taking the win, they end up buying more.

My strategy, is to not even think about where the price *might* go. I look at the facts, the history, the underlying business(es). If it's a good business and stock has made a sharp rise, it's a sell signal. If it's made a sharp dip, it's a buy. This works for me. Once I've closed the position, I don't care what happens, the trade is done. I might re-enter that instrument again in future if it takes a tumble, but I don't look at what happened after I closed the position to measure how good the trade was.

If you are trying to trade something that is as volatile as 5-6% movements in an hour. You will lose. Thank me later :)
 
Any good books on day trading?

Very few, there is some stuff on market microstructure, a few books relevant to options market making etc.. Most books relating to trading, especially day trading are just trash.

If you were to believe the pros, you can win at day trading but you need the skills and the sources.

More like resources/infrastructure these days, at least at the lower timeframes. Back in the 00s you could rent a desk at a trading firm and have good connectivity to the exchanges (in the UK this was mostly futures and options due to stamp duty), these days things are a bit more competitive. You can rent a server at an exchange, you can install trading software on it etc.. and improve your execution but you're unlikely to be able to compete in terms of speed with the establisehd firms.

This is evident with say Goldman Sachs who always win each year, however, apparently 90% of retail day trader lose over time. So how do the pros do it, they talk about extreme risk management, that can be learned, but I'm sure they have their own custom tools to analyse markets and their own sources or information and rumour.

Goldman Sachs isn't too relevant here, mostly involved in a rather different ball game - they have clients to service, they're not particularly competitive on public exchanges. People who can do that are in smaller firms that dominate in this area, these firms trade their own proprietary capital (this stuff doesn't scale too well).

Buy low, sell high.

It's all you need to do. No book is going to teach you if a stock is undervalued or overvalued.

Only insider information can tell you that or looking at their annual accounts. Rather than reading books start reading accounts.

Which will lead you to your next question. The annual accounts are 150 pages long and you don't understand anything.

All annual accounts of UK companies are freely available on companies House. You just have to put the company's name into the search.

Aside from trading around the time it is released that isn't particularly relevant to intraday trading. You're more interested in the next few seconds or minutes not some general view re: the next year.
 
You need to stop talking about CC in here this is for stocks and shares.

Also CC is completely speculative gambling if you are day trading using your tactics. The people who day trade that do proper TA which requires crayons, charts and candles as well as trend spotting and predicting likley patterns.

They aren't just buying on a whim like you are. Again you need to go to the correct forum if that's what you are interested in. People don't really tend to day trade stocks and shares. Not unless they are buying meme stocks which again is speculative gambling.

So what do they day trade, options and futures?
 
NIO sub 39, I know a few of you didn't think we'd see 30's again like we did back in May.

My holding is fine, not looking to top up but how many of you now are getting ready to buy the dip? #itkeepsdipping
 
NIO sub 39, I know a few of you didn't think we'd see 30's again like we did back in May.

My holding is fine, not looking to top up but how many of you now are getting ready to buy the dip? #itkeepsdipping

It made a 5 billion loss from a 2.5 billion revenue.

And it's market cap is 72 billion.

No thanks Jeff.
 
If you have a share plan, ESPP for instance, how does CGT reporting work if you choose to sell the shares as quickly as possible once the shares are purchased/in your ownership?

I can't get my head around how the reporting works for self assessment because surely you shouldn't have to report this if you are selling as soon as practically possible.
 
If you have a share plan, ESPP for instance, how does CGT reporting work if you choose to sell the shares as quickly as possible once the shares are purchased/in your ownership?

I can't get my head around how the reporting works for self assessment because surely you shouldn't have to report this if you are selling as soon as practically possible.

Of course you need to report any capital gain regardless of how long you owned it for doesn't matter if it's one second or 1 century.
 
If you have a share plan, ESPP for instance, how does CGT reporting work if you choose to sell the shares as quickly as possible once the shares are purchased/in your ownership?

I can't get my head around how the reporting works for self assessment because surely you shouldn't have to report this if you are selling as soon as practically possible.
If I'm reading this correctly you are talking about an employee share save scheme where you pay X amount each month out of your wages for Y number of months with an option to buy the shares in Y months time at a price set before you made your first contribution?

If so, let's say you pay £200 per month for 60 months and the option price was £12 to keep the maths simple i.e. you pay in £12000 over five years to get 1000 share options. Fast forward five years, you've paid in £12000 and the share price has gone up from £12 to £30. If you exercise your right to purchase the shares and sell on the same day then you would walk away with 1000 * £30 = £30000. Your CGT liability would be (£30000 - £12000) = £18000 - your CGT allowance for the financial year which depends upon your circumstances. Worth mentioning you can almost always gift some or all of the shares to your spouse i.e. if you "gifted" your spouse half of them (£15k worth) then you would both be liable for (£15000 - £6000) = £9000 which is under the annual allowance unless you have other CGT considerations.
 
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I'm not sure that's true at all is it? My interpretation is that the value of the disposal/amount of gain needs to be above the current thresholds for reporting to be a requirement.

There are reporting requirements but even if no tax is due thanks to allowances that doesn't mean necessarily that you don't need to report it.

There are exceptions and rules to follow and therefore figures are required to give a definitive answer.
 
If I'm reading this correctly you are talking about an employee share save scheme where you pay X amount each month out of your wages for Y number of months with an option to buy the shares in Y months time at a price set before you made your first contribution?

If so, let's say you pay £200 per month for 60 months and the option price was £12 to keep the maths simple i.e. you pay in £12000 over five years to get 1000 share options. Fast forward five years, you've paid in £12000 and the share price has gone up from £12 to £30. If you exercise your right to purchase the shares and sell on the same day then you would walk away with 1000 * £30 = £30000. Your CGT liability would be (£30000 - £12000) = £18000 - your CGT allowance for the financial year which depends upon your circumstances. Worth mentioning you can almost always gift some or all of the shares to your spouse i.e. if you "gifted" your spouse half of them (£15k worth) then you would both be liable for (£15000 - £6000) = £9000 which is under the annual allowance unless you have other CGT considerations.

There are reporting requirements but even if no tax is due thanks to allowances that doesn't mean necessarily that you don't need to report it.

There are exceptions and rules to follow and therefore figures are required to give a definitive answer.

Thanks folks.

I'm not sure what the UK equivalent is to be honest as it differs from a share save scheme. It's an employee share purchase plan (US based company) that runs over 6 month periods. You put in a percentage of your salary and at the end of the 6 months you will (no choice) buy the stock at a discounted price. You pay income tax/NI contributions on the gain so this is why I'm keen to understand how you avoid CGT (and reporting) by selling as quickly as possible.

I guess the whole point is moot if the disposal proceeds are over ~£50K as I believe it would need to be reported even if there is no gain.
 
Thanks folks.

I'm not sure what the UK equivalent is to be honest as it differs from a share save scheme. It's an employee share purchase plan (US based company) that runs over 6 month periods. You put in a percentage of your salary and at the end of the 6 months you will (no choice) buy the stock at a discounted price. You pay income tax/NI contributions on the gain so this is why I'm keen to understand how you avoid CGT (and reporting) by selling as quickly as possible.

I guess the whole point is moot if the disposal proceeds are over ~£50K as I believe it would need to be reported even if there is no gain.

Are you abroad?

https://www.gov.uk/capital-gains-tax/report-and-pay-capital-gains-tax

Rules are different if you are unless you are resident here for tax purposes
 
It wouldn't be no as they would be sold as soon as possible upon purchase.

But purchase is over time not when they are released to you so to speak?

If it's below that still then no tax is due but you may still have to declare it all even though you will pay zero capital gains due to allowances. Phone the self assessment helpline and ask or use their web chat tomorrow morning.
 
I was talking at work today, and tempted to follow suit with them buying Aston Martin shares. I then had to stop myself as can only see a lot of headwinds and difficult to get past the previous poor management.
 
But purchase is over time not when they are released to you so to speak?

If it's below that still then no tax is due but you may still have to declare it all even though you will pay zero capital gains due to allowances. Phone the self assessment helpline and ask or use their web chat tomorrow morning.

Thanks for the help and yes good idea I didn't think of the helpline tbh just thought I'd see if anyone else could get their heads around it.

The purchase comes at the end of the 6 month period. Any 'gain' (based on the discounted purchase price vs market value) over the 6 months, is income taxed with NIC taken upon purchase. The potential for any capital gain only kicks in from the 6 month point of purchase.
 
Okay is the gain from purchase price to sale (how much you paid) and how much you sell it for greater than £12,300?

(disclaimer, not a lawyer or accountant)

No, because it doesn't seem to be an approved scheme the gain (if applicable) is essentially from the market value on the day he makes the purchase, income tax and NI is due on the difference between the price he pays (the exercise price) and the market value, not CGT. so any CGT is only applicable beyond the amount on which he pays income and NI on - ergo exercising and selling immediately or shortly after should basically result in no or tiny GCT.

Thanks folks.

I'm not sure what the UK equivalent is to be honest as it differs from a share save scheme. It's an employee share purchase plan (US based company) that runs over 6 month periods. You put in a percentage of your salary and at the end of the 6 months you will (no choice) buy the stock at a discounted price. You pay income tax/NI contributions on the gain so this is why I'm keen to understand how you avoid CGT (and reporting) by selling as quickly as possible.

I guess the whole point is moot if the disposal proceeds are over ~£50K as I believe it would need to be reported even if there is no gain.

(disclaimer, not a lawyer or accountant)

So it sounds like a share option scheme that isn't in an HMRC-approved scheme. You mention being able to buy at a discounted price - I presume you're referring to a price that is set in advance and on a particular date? i.e. if you opt into this thing you're granted an option (the obligation to buy bit is a bit funny mind - so I am a bit unsure here)

The below is written under the assumption we're talking about some employee share option scheme.

This isn't advice but AFAIK, the basics of how options are taxed in the UK are:

Ordinary investor:

You purchase options on an exchange (paying the premium for them), if you sell the options then you make a gain or loss for CGT purposes (or indeed if they expire worthless) as these things have value themselves (the premium). If you exercise the options then the cost of the resulting shares are bundled together with the option premium for GCT purposes and there is no gain or loss until you sell the shares.

Employee in an HMRC approved scheme, for example, save as you earn scheme:

You're granted options by your employer, any notional premium is ignored even though you've just "earned" a thing of value, if they expire worthless then there is no GCT loss. You save in some savings account until expiry of the options (minor tax break on the interest here, realistically rates are low so meh). Upon expiry, you can choose to exercise the options if profitable to do so (using the savings from the special savings account), your cost for GCT purposes is based on the strike price/cost of the shares (similar to how an ordinary investor is treated), so you're (potentially) liable for GCT for the difference between that and the price you(eventually) sell at. (can be avoided by dumping into an ISA or pension). They like to say that you're getting to avoid income tax and NI via these schemes but you're (potentially) liable instead for CGT and they're basically treating you similarly to an ordinary investor (albeit ignoring any value/premium for the options you were granted).

Employee not in an HMRC approved scheme.

(This is the one that annoys me a bit in how they treat it and what I think you're referring to).

You're granted options by your employer, any notional premium for these options is ignored (as per above re: the approved schemes too). Upon expiry, you buy the shares (apparently you're forced to under your particular scheme, an option is generally the right but not the obligation to buy an underlying asset, but meh)
Apparently this is because of the risk of tax avoidance schemes but how HMRC now treats you is rather ****ty (IMHO). You're liable for income tax and NI (not CGT!!!)on the difference between the exercise price and the value of the shares at expiry - this is naff because if you want to hold onto the shares then, unlike an ordinary investor, your tax liability (which would otherwise be CGT) isn't deferred until the sale of the shares but is charged on an (as of yet) unrealised gain(!!!), you owe income tax and NI which must be paid via self-assessment that year even if you wish to hold onto the shares (this might strongly incentivise employees to sell in order to pay that tax bill).

Your cost for CGT purposes, unlike in the HMRC approved schemes or in the case for an ordinary investor, is not the exercise price (+ premium, if applicable) but rather the value of the shares at expiry (so you're liable for CGT beyond the amount which you owe income and NI on). If you do keep them then you have a potential gain or loss for CGT purposes from that point onwards - so in theory you could later make a loss having already been taxed (income and NI) on an unrealsied gain. IMO this is unfair but meh...

disclaimer - not a lawyer/accountant The above is not advice, just a (possibly wrong) outline to the best of my knowledge that might help and some opinionated commentary, best to phone up and check etc..
 
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