Trading the stockmarket (NO Referrals)

Caporegime
Joined
21 Jun 2006
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38,372
Well once it starts going up usually at certain times of the day, when the people are up etc, it often carries on up, in the case of CC it will usually go up to 5 or 6% in the matter of an hour. I'm just jumping on the band wagon here when it starts going up, I.e at about 1 or 2%. It often does work.

I'm trading by watching general trends.

You need to stop talking about CC in here this is for stocks and shares.

Also CC is completely speculative gambling if you are day trading using your tactics. The people who day trade that do proper TA which requires crayons, charts and candles as well as trend spotting and predicting likley patterns.

They aren't just buying on a whim like you are. Again you need to go to the correct forum if that's what you are interested in. People don't really tend to day trade stocks and shares. Not unless they are buying meme stocks which again is speculative gambling.
 
Soldato
Joined
20 Dec 2004
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15,893
Ofc, but how do you know when others are selling and buying. It seems too simplistic in some ways, are people that dumb that they haven't asked these questions that I'm asking. When they start losing money do they not ask these question "how do the pros do it?" or do they just quit trading and another person comes in and fills their spot?

Are you saying there's a constant stream of new traders coming in and losing money while the more clued up people sit and snipe their money?

Retail traders are typically caught out by either being scared, or greedy. They get scared when a position moves against them, panic, sell and liquidate losses. They get greedy when a position moves their way, and instead of banking the profit and taking the win, they end up buying more.

My strategy, is to not even think about where the price *might* go. I look at the facts, the history, the underlying business(es). If it's a good business and stock has made a sharp rise, it's a sell signal. If it's made a sharp dip, it's a buy. This works for me. Once I've closed the position, I don't care what happens, the trade is done. I might re-enter that instrument again in future if it takes a tumble, but I don't look at what happened after I closed the position to measure how good the trade was.

If you are trying to trade something that is as volatile as 5-6% movements in an hour. You will lose. Thank me later :)
 
Caporegime
Joined
29 Jan 2008
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58,921
Any good books on day trading?

Very few, there is some stuff on market microstructure, a few books relevant to options market making etc.. Most books relating to trading, especially day trading are just trash.

If you were to believe the pros, you can win at day trading but you need the skills and the sources.

More like resources/infrastructure these days, at least at the lower timeframes. Back in the 00s you could rent a desk at a trading firm and have good connectivity to the exchanges (in the UK this was mostly futures and options due to stamp duty), these days things are a bit more competitive. You can rent a server at an exchange, you can install trading software on it etc.. and improve your execution but you're unlikely to be able to compete in terms of speed with the establisehd firms.

This is evident with say Goldman Sachs who always win each year, however, apparently 90% of retail day trader lose over time. So how do the pros do it, they talk about extreme risk management, that can be learned, but I'm sure they have their own custom tools to analyse markets and their own sources or information and rumour.

Goldman Sachs isn't too relevant here, mostly involved in a rather different ball game - they have clients to service, they're not particularly competitive on public exchanges. People who can do that are in smaller firms that dominate in this area, these firms trade their own proprietary capital (this stuff doesn't scale too well).

Buy low, sell high.

It's all you need to do. No book is going to teach you if a stock is undervalued or overvalued.

Only insider information can tell you that or looking at their annual accounts. Rather than reading books start reading accounts.

Which will lead you to your next question. The annual accounts are 150 pages long and you don't understand anything.

All annual accounts of UK companies are freely available on companies House. You just have to put the company's name into the search.

Aside from trading around the time it is released that isn't particularly relevant to intraday trading. You're more interested in the next few seconds or minutes not some general view re: the next year.
 
Soldato
Joined
17 Jun 2012
Posts
11,259
You need to stop talking about CC in here this is for stocks and shares.

Also CC is completely speculative gambling if you are day trading using your tactics. The people who day trade that do proper TA which requires crayons, charts and candles as well as trend spotting and predicting likley patterns.

They aren't just buying on a whim like you are. Again you need to go to the correct forum if that's what you are interested in. People don't really tend to day trade stocks and shares. Not unless they are buying meme stocks which again is speculative gambling.

So what do they day trade, options and futures?
 
Soldato
Joined
25 Sep 2006
Posts
14,358
NIO sub 39, I know a few of you didn't think we'd see 30's again like we did back in May.

My holding is fine, not looking to top up but how many of you now are getting ready to buy the dip? #itkeepsdipping
 
Caporegime
Joined
21 Jun 2006
Posts
38,372
NIO sub 39, I know a few of you didn't think we'd see 30's again like we did back in May.

My holding is fine, not looking to top up but how many of you now are getting ready to buy the dip? #itkeepsdipping

It made a 5 billion loss from a 2.5 billion revenue.

And it's market cap is 72 billion.

No thanks Jeff.
 
Soldato
Joined
6 Jun 2011
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2,739
If you have a share plan, ESPP for instance, how does CGT reporting work if you choose to sell the shares as quickly as possible once the shares are purchased/in your ownership?

I can't get my head around how the reporting works for self assessment because surely you shouldn't have to report this if you are selling as soon as practically possible.
 
Caporegime
Joined
21 Jun 2006
Posts
38,372
If you have a share plan, ESPP for instance, how does CGT reporting work if you choose to sell the shares as quickly as possible once the shares are purchased/in your ownership?

I can't get my head around how the reporting works for self assessment because surely you shouldn't have to report this if you are selling as soon as practically possible.

Of course you need to report any capital gain regardless of how long you owned it for doesn't matter if it's one second or 1 century.
 
Associate
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15 Nov 2018
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Location
Leicestershire
If you have a share plan, ESPP for instance, how does CGT reporting work if you choose to sell the shares as quickly as possible once the shares are purchased/in your ownership?

I can't get my head around how the reporting works for self assessment because surely you shouldn't have to report this if you are selling as soon as practically possible.
If I'm reading this correctly you are talking about an employee share save scheme where you pay X amount each month out of your wages for Y number of months with an option to buy the shares in Y months time at a price set before you made your first contribution?

If so, let's say you pay £200 per month for 60 months and the option price was £12 to keep the maths simple i.e. you pay in £12000 over five years to get 1000 share options. Fast forward five years, you've paid in £12000 and the share price has gone up from £12 to £30. If you exercise your right to purchase the shares and sell on the same day then you would walk away with 1000 * £30 = £30000. Your CGT liability would be (£30000 - £12000) = £18000 - your CGT allowance for the financial year which depends upon your circumstances. Worth mentioning you can almost always gift some or all of the shares to your spouse i.e. if you "gifted" your spouse half of them (£15k worth) then you would both be liable for (£15000 - £6000) = £9000 which is under the annual allowance unless you have other CGT considerations.
 
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Caporegime
Joined
21 Jun 2006
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38,372
I'm not sure that's true at all is it? My interpretation is that the value of the disposal/amount of gain needs to be above the current thresholds for reporting to be a requirement.

There are reporting requirements but even if no tax is due thanks to allowances that doesn't mean necessarily that you don't need to report it.

There are exceptions and rules to follow and therefore figures are required to give a definitive answer.
 
Soldato
Joined
6 Jun 2011
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2,739
If I'm reading this correctly you are talking about an employee share save scheme where you pay X amount each month out of your wages for Y number of months with an option to buy the shares in Y months time at a price set before you made your first contribution?

If so, let's say you pay £200 per month for 60 months and the option price was £12 to keep the maths simple i.e. you pay in £12000 over five years to get 1000 share options. Fast forward five years, you've paid in £12000 and the share price has gone up from £12 to £30. If you exercise your right to purchase the shares and sell on the same day then you would walk away with 1000 * £30 = £30000. Your CGT liability would be (£30000 - £12000) = £18000 - your CGT allowance for the financial year which depends upon your circumstances. Worth mentioning you can almost always gift some or all of the shares to your spouse i.e. if you "gifted" your spouse half of them (£15k worth) then you would both be liable for (£15000 - £6000) = £9000 which is under the annual allowance unless you have other CGT considerations.

There are reporting requirements but even if no tax is due thanks to allowances that doesn't mean necessarily that you don't need to report it.

There are exceptions and rules to follow and therefore figures are required to give a definitive answer.

Thanks folks.

I'm not sure what the UK equivalent is to be honest as it differs from a share save scheme. It's an employee share purchase plan (US based company) that runs over 6 month periods. You put in a percentage of your salary and at the end of the 6 months you will (no choice) buy the stock at a discounted price. You pay income tax/NI contributions on the gain so this is why I'm keen to understand how you avoid CGT (and reporting) by selling as quickly as possible.

I guess the whole point is moot if the disposal proceeds are over ~£50K as I believe it would need to be reported even if there is no gain.
 
Caporegime
Joined
21 Jun 2006
Posts
38,372
Thanks folks.

I'm not sure what the UK equivalent is to be honest as it differs from a share save scheme. It's an employee share purchase plan (US based company) that runs over 6 month periods. You put in a percentage of your salary and at the end of the 6 months you will (no choice) buy the stock at a discounted price. You pay income tax/NI contributions on the gain so this is why I'm keen to understand how you avoid CGT (and reporting) by selling as quickly as possible.

I guess the whole point is moot if the disposal proceeds are over ~£50K as I believe it would need to be reported even if there is no gain.

Are you abroad?

https://www.gov.uk/capital-gains-tax/report-and-pay-capital-gains-tax

Rules are different if you are unless you are resident here for tax purposes
 
Caporegime
Joined
21 Jun 2006
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38,372
It wouldn't be no as they would be sold as soon as possible upon purchase.

But purchase is over time not when they are released to you so to speak?

If it's below that still then no tax is due but you may still have to declare it all even though you will pay zero capital gains due to allowances. Phone the self assessment helpline and ask or use their web chat tomorrow morning.
 
Associate
Joined
25 Aug 2008
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947
I was talking at work today, and tempted to follow suit with them buying Aston Martin shares. I then had to stop myself as can only see a lot of headwinds and difficult to get past the previous poor management.
 
Soldato
Joined
6 Jun 2011
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2,739
But purchase is over time not when they are released to you so to speak?

If it's below that still then no tax is due but you may still have to declare it all even though you will pay zero capital gains due to allowances. Phone the self assessment helpline and ask or use their web chat tomorrow morning.

Thanks for the help and yes good idea I didn't think of the helpline tbh just thought I'd see if anyone else could get their heads around it.

The purchase comes at the end of the 6 month period. Any 'gain' (based on the discounted purchase price vs market value) over the 6 months, is income taxed with NIC taken upon purchase. The potential for any capital gain only kicks in from the 6 month point of purchase.
 
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