Birch Tree & Sewer Line...

[relicalpha]

Hey,

Moved into our house a couple of years ago, which is in a smallish village and there's a sewer line that runs through every back garden in the village, maybe half way up the garden away from houses. I'm just telling this by visual aerial maps, there's no manhole covers or anything, at least for my property.

I've never really thought about it... but there is a fairly well established Birch tree lets say 10+ years old and it must be sitting fairly close, if not directly above the main line.

Is this a disaster waiting to happen? Would you bother to preempt it? It's a really nice feature tree and I'd hate to remove it, but I guess I would have to foot the bill if it ever broke into the main pipe?

Thanks!

 

[mickyflinn]

Tree should be at least 10ft away from sewer lines but what usually happens is the roots dislodge the pipes . This then leads to leaks and the roots invade the pipe searching for nutiriants causing blockage and worse case colapse. Tree roots spread widle but not so deap depending on soil condition and species.

Its a difficult call .

 

[ttaskmaster]

Is this a disaster waiting to happen? Would you bother to preempt it? It's a really nice feature tree and I'd hate to remove it, but I guess I would have to foot the bill if it ever broke into the main pipe?

Firstly, don't be so certain the maps are accurate, or that the tree presents a problem.
Secondly, it depends whether the sewer serves multiple properties (and from what point) as to whether it's public or not, and thus whether you'd pay for it or not.

 

[relicalpha]

Firstly, don't be so certain the maps are accurate, or that the tree presents a problem.
Secondly, it depends whether the sewer serves multiple properties (and from what point) as to whether it's public or not, and thus whether you'd pay for it or not.

Thanks, is it possible to get a clear answer on these things before there's a problem? Can I ask the water company to assess it for example? Or are there experts you can pay to survey and make a call?

There is no access to this pipe, unless you go from the house drain about 15m away.

It basically sits as a T pipe going across each garden in the village, and each house joins up. The tree is right on the main top pipe bit at the left most side of the garden - so some distance from where the join pipe from the house connects up and on bit that the entire village uses...

 

[ttaskmaster]

From the point at which the pipe serves more than one separate property, that then becomes a public sewer and is the responsibility of the water company. It doesn't matter on whose land this actually happens, either.
The water company won't care until there's an actual problem, and the lateral connection from your house to the sewer will still be your problem.

You can get a private inspection of the inside of the pipe and there should be access for such a purpose, even if you can't see it on the surface. Whether it's in good enough condition to facilitate access is another matter. Someone like DynoRod should be able to do that, though it might cost you a fair bit. You won't know about the conditions outside of the pipe without digging stuff up, which I don't recommend unless there's an actual problem!

 

[relicalpha]

From the point at which the pipe serves more than one separate property, that then becomes a public sewer and is the responsibility of the water company. It doesn't matter on whose land this actually happens, either.
The water company won't care until there's an actual problem, and the lateral connection from your house to the sewer will still be your problem.

You can get a private inspection of the inside of the pipe and there should be access for such a purpose, even if you can't see it on the surface. Whether it's in good enough condition to facilitate access is another matter. Someone like DynoRod should be able to do that, though it might cost you a fair bit. You won't know about the conditions outside of the pipe without digging stuff up, which I don't recommend unless there's an actual problem!

Thanks a lot - sounds like I'm worried over nothing then It's definitely above a shared section of the pipe so as long as I'm not responsible if/when it goes wrong, I'll happily ignore it

 

[Relentless81]

You can get a Drain Mapping done, its where they cut a hole in your soil pipe (No man hole) and shove a camera down there. I had one done recently for the purpose of finding out where the pipe went because we wanted an extension, unfortunately we cant have the extension because we have a connecting 150mm pipe (Public) right where we wanted the extension.

From what I understood if the pipe is 100mm its your personal pipe and your responsibility, if the pipe is 150mm its a connected and public pipe and that makes it the utility companies responsibility

The drain mapping cost me £156, if you are in the Manchester area I can recommend them if you're interested

 

[ttaskmaster]

From what I understood if the pipe is 100mm its your personal pipe and your responsibility, if the pipe is 150mm its a connected and public pipe and that makes it the utility companies responsibility

Nope.
As above, it becomes public from the point at which it serves multiple properties, under Section 105A. Diameter is not a factor.
The sewerage undertaker may also accept responsibility for lateral drains from teh point where they leave your curtilage, but that can sometimes depend on agreements with local councils and other parties.

 

[Deleted User 298457]

A lot of the old boy drainage type firms have bought themselves Ali Express endoscopes if you want to pay someone to stick a camera down there. I think we paid about £150 for the privilege.

 

[Jez]

You can get a Drain Mapping done, its where they cut a hole in your soil pipe (No man hole) and shove a camera down there. I had one done recently for the purpose of finding out where the pipe went because we wanted an extension, unfortunately we cant have the extension because we have a connecting 150mm pipe (Public) right where we wanted the extension.

From what I understood if the pipe is 100mm its your personal pipe and your responsibility, if the pipe is 150mm its a connected and public pipe and that makes it the utility companies responsibility

The drain mapping cost me £156, if you are in the Manchester area I can recommend them if you're interested

Did you actually receive refusal from your water company for that build over agreement? I have never heard of them refusing outright, that is very surprising to me.

 

[ttaskmaster]

A lot of the old boy drainage type firms have bought themselves Ali Express endoscopes if you want to pay someone to stick a camera down there. I think we paid about £150 for the privilege.

Pearpoint cameras are far better, and usually used by professional surveyors. Longer cables, too!

Did you actually receive refusal from your water company for that build over agreement? I have never heard of them refusing outright, that is very surprising to me.

We will outright refuse if it infringes upon our legal right to access of our assets... and if it comes to it, we will rip up your extension floor if we need access. That's always a fun day to be on shift......!

 

[Jez]

We will outright refuse if it infringes upon our legal right to access of our assets... and if it comes to it, we will rip up your extension floor if we need access. That's always a fun day to be on shift......!

Oh I'm sure that it happens. Wondering why they refused him though as usually its acceptance with conditions (at least in my admittedly small sample of experience)

 

[Relentless81]

Nope.
As above, it becomes public from the point at which it serves multiple properties, under Section 105A. Diameter is not a factor.
The sewerage undertaker may also accept responsibility for lateral drains from teh point where they leave your curtilage, but that can sometimes depend on agreements with local councils and other parties.

Fair enough you obviously know your stuff and I dont, I think I got a bit of bad info regarding the diameters but its definitely serving more than just my property on my driveway which is where the extension would have gone, really annoying to be honest we really wanted a downstairs toilet extension but its just not worth the hassle and its nice to know that my both my neighbors poop flows down my driveway

Did you actually receive refusal from your water company for that build over agreement? I have never heard of them refusing outright, that is very surprising to me.

No we didnt bother to take it any further after finding out about the public pipe where we wanted to build, too much hassle and for reasons such as....

We will outright refuse if it infringes upon our legal right to access of our assets... and if it comes to it, we will rip up your extension floor if we need access. That's always a fun day to be on shift......!

I believe you have to pay for the pleasure of finding out if its a yes or a no and can also be a long drawn out process.

 

[Jez]

No we didnt bother to take it any further after finding out about the public pipe where we wanted to build, too much hassle and for reasons such as....



I believe you have to pay for the pleasure of finding out if its a yes or a no and can also be a long drawn out process.

You should re-visit the idea if you do want to build there, i have built over several Thames water controlled sewer lines now (appreciate that this isnt your local board) - the process is not drawn out at all and has never cost a penny, at least with Thames water this is the case.

In each case, we contacted their developer services dept, explained that the works are domestic, provided our planning drawings to them (block and site plans specifically) and then waited a week or so for one of their engineers to look at it. In two cases i have had to replace the pipe run from very old bitumen to new for the length being built over (totally fair enough) and in one case, due to a junction, we had to re-route the run by a few metres to move the junction outside the footprint, or agree to install an internal sealed manhole into the floor should they ever need access.

Just trying to be helpful as it really isnt likely to stop you

 

[Relentless81]

You should re-visit the idea if you do want to build there, i have built over several Thames water controlled sewer lines now (appreciate that this isnt your local board) - the process is not drawn out at all and has never cost a penny, at least with Thames water this is the case.

In each case, we contacted their developer services dept, explained that the works are domestic, provided our planning drawings to them (block and site plans specifically) and then waited a week or so for one of their engineers to look at it. In two cases i have had to replace the pipe run from very old bitumen to new for the length being built over (totally fair enough) and in one case, due to a junction, we had to re-route the run by a few metres to move the junction outside the footprint, or agree to install an internal sealed manhole into the floor should they ever need access.

Just trying to be helpful as it really isnt likely to stop you

Appreciate that but we've decided on another solution for now, we could revisit this at some point but there were positive and negatives to both solutions so all is not lost apart from the convenience of a downstairs toilet of course

To be honest if it was all down to me we would have moved house !

 

[ttaskmaster]

Oh I'm sure that it happens. Wondering why they refused him though as usually its acceptance with conditions (at least in my admittedly small sample of experience)

From the above, I would guess the connecting 150 over which he wanted to build included a manhole or something, which meant his build would prevent access... Just a guess, though.

Fair enough you obviously know your stuff and I dont, I think I got a bit of bad info regarding the diameters but its definitely serving more than just my property on my driveway which is where the extension would have gone, really annoying to be honest we really wanted a downstairs toilet extension but its just not worth the hassle and its nice to know that my both my neighbors poop flows down my driveway

I work in the industry and have the Engineers Guide To Sewerage Law among the various books on my desk. It's absolutely packed with diagrams of the various scenarios, and the subsequent resolutions of queried ownership/responsibility.
I actually know very little off the top of my head, but I know where to look it all up!

As mentioned, it probably depends on what you're building over and how close you are to it.
It often doesn't cost anything to phone up Developer Services and ask, though there may be a few small charges for procuring and producing things like maps, or letters of 'official approval to build over public assets' sorta thing...