Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

[Roar87]

It doesn't matter what Russia thinks, or you think they think

Do you think Ukraine was happy with loads of Russian tanks and troops on their border?

Doesn't really matter though since Ukraine doesn't have nuclear weapons, their people are free to leave, no one has to die there and people have choices. Yes it's terrible that Russia is invading them, but it's not nuclear war terrible. There are magnitudes of difference there.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

I notice that the "We must not anger Putin because he has nukes." crowd seem to also think we are safe if we just let him take what he wants this time because "We are NATO and he would never attack a NATO country."

Why not?

If the "I have nukes" threat is demonstrated to work so well against NATO now, why wouldn't it work when he invades Poland or other NATO country?

"Oh he attacked a NATO country? Well then, *now I want to end life as we know it on the planet." I don't think they will say that.

The "end of the world" is not something the "Don't make the crazy man angry" crowd will be okay with just because a NATO country is attacked.

If Putin is ready to push the end-the-world button, why would NATO have any bearing on who he attacks?

Its tricky.
Really its down to bluff and risk and balance

Many see their comfortable life, they see some risk in standing up to Putin and are fine to let potentially 44 million people suffer/be killed, they will hand wring but as long as the refugees don't go to where they are they are fine with it.
Unfortunately its probably the right call right now as much as it horrible to watch. I still think we could do more, but doing more brings more risk and those above us have their line.

The real issue I have is the most knicker wetting spineless ones you 100% know that if Putin went for say Estonia would be going "but its Estonia, why should we go to war, risk being wiped out for them, just kick them out of NATO, I know I said NATO was a red line, but I mean its Estonia!!!11!"
Some people will only fight when they are cornered with no retreat. We cannot listen to them. Oddly they are often the same who take cheap shots at Corbyn, whilst he has some conviction in his position where as they are just being cowards.

 

[Deleted User 298457]

But he has nukes and threatens he will use them. Is the end of the world okay if he attacks NATO, or will you recommend we just roll over then too?

He has nukes after all.

He's a Russian bot, don't waste your time. Look at his posting history. Only ever involved in divisive topics involving race etc.

 

[Firestar_3x]

Look at North Korea, Iran and Cuba. Heavy sanctions. Cuba is under a complete embargo. Did it change the regime? No it did not. So why would you expect a change of regime now?

Russia has had a massive taste of what its like to live a more western lifestyle, most of that ends and it will be hard to take.

 

[NinjaCool]

Siemens, the largest industrial manufacturing company in Europe has announced they will suspends all activities in Russia.
https://wssnews.co.uk/siemens-suspends-operations-in-russia-following-ukraine-invasion/

 

[Scougar]

We're not saying let him take what he wants, our red line are countries in NATO. To be honest though I don't think he's capable of waging any sort of land war against countries in NATO so it's a pretty mute point.

You understand how bullying works?

 

[Superficial]

C

Not strictly true. Time of travel is everything in the madness of nuclear launches.....
You can pray a lot more In 30 mins than 4 mins

Correct.

The concept is called First strike which is a Pre-emptive nuclear strike. The aim being to stop them nuking you.


It’s essentially why the Americans placed nukes in Turkey starting the Cuban Missile Crisis.

 

[HEADRAT]

Maybe just show the Russians a bit of respect by not having nuclear weapons close to their country that aren't even required.

Does Russia show respect?

 

[bingham67]

Look at North Korea, Iran and Cuba. Heavy sanctions. Cuba is under a complete embargo. Did it change the regime? No it did not. So why would you expect a change of regime now?

I dont know people seem to think that sanctions will work here with discussions over the last few days I trust there views.

I just hope that Putin is removed from Ukraine and they get there country back.

 

[sprite1275]

So, Russian state news agency RIA Novosti accidentally published their victory article a couple of days ago, it's "interesting" reading:

A new world is being born before our eyes. Russia's military operation in Ukraine has ushered in a new era - and in three dimensions at once. And of course, in the fourth, internal Russian. Here begins a new period both in ideology and in the very model of our socio-economic system - but this is worth talking about separately a little later.

Russia is restoring its unity - the tragedy of 1991, this terrible catastrophe in our history, its unnatural dislocation, has been overcome. Yes, at a great cost, yes, through the tragic events of a virtual civil war, because now brothers, separated by belonging to the Russian and Ukrainian armies, are still shooting at each other, but there will be no more Ukraine as anti-Russia. Russia is restoring its historical fullness, gathering the Russian world, the Russian people together - in its entirety of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians. If we had abandoned this, if we had allowed the temporary division to take hold for centuries, then we would not only betray the memory of our ancestors, but would also be cursed by our descendants for allowing the disintegration of the Russian land.

Vladimir Putin has assumed, without a drop of exaggeration, a historic responsibility by deciding not to leave the solution of the Ukrainian question to future generations. After all, the need to solve it would always remain the main problem for Russia - for two key reasons. And the issue of national security, that is, the creation of anti-Russia from Ukraine and an outpost for the West to put pressure on us, is only the second most important among them.

The first would always be the complex of a divided people, the complex of national humiliation - when the Russian house first lost part of its foundation (Kiev), and then was forced to come to terms with the existence of two states, not one, but two peoples. That is, either to abandon their history, agreeing with the insane versions that "only Ukraine is the real Russia," or to gnash one's teeth helplessly, remembering the times when "we lost Ukraine." Returning Ukraine, that is, turning it back to Russia, would be more and more difficult with every decade - recoding, de-Russification of Russians and inciting Ukrainian Little Russians against Russians would gain momentum.

Now this problem is gone - Ukraine has returned to Russia. This does not mean that its statehood will be liquidated, but it will be reorganized, re-established and returned to its natural state of part of the Russian world. In what borders, in what form will the alliance with Russia be fixed (through the CSTO and the Eurasian Union or the Union State of Russia and Belarus )? This will be decided after the end is put in the history of Ukraine as anti-Russia. In any case, the period of the split of the Russian people is coming to an end.

And here begins the second dimension of the coming new era - it concerns Russia's relations with the West. Not even Russia, but the Russian world, that is, three states, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, acting in geopolitical terms as a single whole. These relations have entered a new stage - the West sees the return of Russia to its historical borders in Europe . And he is loudly indignant at this, although in the depths of his soul he must admit to himself that it could not be otherwise.

Did someone in the old European capitals, in Paris and Berlin , seriously believe that Moscow would give up Kiev ? That the Russians will forever be a divided people? And at the same time when Europe is uniting, when the German and French elites are trying to seize control of European integration from the Anglo-Saxons and assemble a united Europe? Forgetting that the unification of Europe became possible only thanks to the unification of Germany, which happened according to the good Russian (albeit not very smart) will. To swipe after that also on Russian lands is not even the height of ingratitude, but of geopolitical stupidity. The West as a whole, and even more so Europe in particular, did not have the strength to keep Ukraine in its sphere of influence, and even more so to take Ukraine for itself. In order not to understand this, one had to be just geopolitical fools.

More precisely, there was only one option: to bet on the further collapse of Russia, that is, the Russian Federation. But the fact that it did not work should have been clear twenty years ago. And already fifteen years ago, after Putin's Munich speech, even the deaf could hear - Russia is returning.

Now the West is trying to punish Russia for the fact that it returned, for not justifying its plans to profit at its expense, for not allowing the expansion of the western space to the east. Seeking to punish us, the West thinks that relations with it are of vital importance to us. But this has not been the case for a long time - the world has changed, and this is well understood not only by Europeans, but also by the Anglo-Saxons who rule the West. No amount of Western pressure on Russia will lead to anything. Losses from the sublimation of confrontation will be on both sides, but Russia is ready for them morally and geopolitically. But for the West itself, an increase in the degree of confrontation incurs huge costs - and the main ones are not at all economic.

Europe, as part of the West, wanted autonomy - the German project of European integration does not make strategic sense while maintaining the Anglo-Saxon ideological, military and geopolitical control over the Old World. Yes, and it cannot be successful, because the Anglo-Saxons need a controlled Europe. But Europe needs autonomy for another reason as well — in case the States go into self-isolation (as a result of growing internal conflicts and contradictions) or focus on the Pacific region, where the geopolitical center of mavity is moving.

But the confrontation with Russia, into which the Anglo-Saxons are dragging Europe, deprives the Europeans of even the chance of independence - not to mention the fact that in the same way Europe is trying to impose a break with China . If now the Atlanticists are happy that the "Russian threat" will unite the Western bloc, then in Berlin and Paris they cannot fail to understand that, having lost hope for autonomy, the European project will simply collapse in the medium term. That is why independent-minded Europeans are now completely uninterested in building a new iron curtain on their eastern borders - realizing that it will turn into a corral for Europe. Whose century (more precisely, half a millennium) of global leadership is over in any case - but various options for its future are still possible.

Because the construction of a new world order - and this is the third dimension of current events - is accelerating, and its contours are more and more clearly visible through the spreading cover of Anglo-Saxon globalization. A multipolar world has finally become a reality - the operation in Ukraine is not capable of rallying anyone but the West against Russia. Because the rest of the world sees and understands perfectly well - this is a conflict between Russia and the West, this is a response to the geopolitical expansion of the Atlanticists, this is Russia's return of its historical space and its place in the world.

China and India , Latin America and Africa , the Islamic world and Southeast Asia - no one believes that the West leads the world order, much less sets the rules of the game. Russia has not only challenged the West, it has shown that the era of Western global domination can be considered completely and finally over. The new world will be built by all civilizations and centers of power, naturally, together with the West (united or not) - but not on its terms and not according to its rules.​

Via here. Putin will be howling at the moon next.

Scary reading

 

[EddScott]

This is not about just taking Donesk and Luhansk.

Fair enough. It just seemed a plausible reason to ensure capture and hold in those regions.

https://www.cato.org/commentary/making-ukraine-nato-member-all-name#

Interesting read. Does lay some weight behind the comments of the US using Ukraine to beat the head of Russia. I personally feel Ukraine is less corrupt than it was in 2008 and was not leaning towards an authoritarian state.

 

[krooton]

That's missing the point. If Putin didn't feel like he had to attack the rest of Ukraine in order to annexe Crimea, then why would he feel like he had to so in order to annexe Donesk and Luhansk?

"it was different" is not the same as "it is different". It isn't, the only reason there's been a different reaction from the west is the invasion of Ukraine itself and the build up beforehand.

And if "of course Ukraine would try to take them back" then why haven't they tried to take back Crimea?

Of course the truth is as always nuanced, but I don't think there's much, if any truth that Putin would in any way feel like he should have to apply attrition to Ukraine to do either or any of these things and that POV is supported both by Putin's disregard of the Ukrainian military so far during his "special operations" and that Ukraine made no attempt whatsoever to try to reassert their sovereignty over Crimea since the Russians pulled out, which they did within months of taking control back in 2014.

This is not about just taking Donesk and Luhansk.

Donesk and Luhansk have some meaty natural gas reserves, plus pushing the border further towards the Carpathian mountains makes for a more defend-able position for Russia. Plus if they can gain control of the Dnieper river, they can re-open the fresh-water canals that feed Crimea that the Ukrainians blocked up.

 

[fez]

The fact that anyone should be able to dictate to another country what they can and cannot do is beyond reason to any rational person

This is quite literally foreign policy 101. America has been dictating other countries actions, politics and direction for probably over a century now. Any powerful country does the same. You don't need to invade to change the direction of another country and haven't needed to for a very long time.

 

[Deleted member 77746]

You know whats funny about all of this. The more mess the Russians make of Ukraine the more they have to clean up. This could take more than 10 years to rebuild. By then they might run out of cash and everyone may run into full scale poverty.

 

[Lysander]

You know whats funny about all of this. The more mess the Russians make of Ukraine the more they have to clean up. This could take more than 10 years to rebuild. By then they might run out of cash and everyone may run into full scale poverty.

Putin Russia best Russia.

 

[Deleted member 77746]

Putin Russia best Russia.

I'm fairly sure there's more sanctions to come. Russia will become a **** hole. Even worse than it is now.

 

[StriderX]

Look at North Korea, Iran and Cuba. Heavy sanctions. Cuba is under a complete embargo. Did it change the regime? No it did not. So why would you expect a change of regime now?

Russia wants to be as respected as much as they were during it's Tsarist and Soviet eras of strength, none of those other countries can attest to that level of loss of position in the world.

 

[inogen]

Fair enough. It just seemed a plausible reason to ensure capture and hold in those regions.

I've even seen it postulated on the news. It makes no sense. I think it's just wishful thinking.

Like back when it was hoped Hitler just wanted to take back territory lost at Versailles.

Putin wants to re-establish greater Russia. Anything else he says or looks like he's doing is just a play towards that goal.

NATO aggression, blah, blah, genocide and neo-nazis in Ukraine, blah blah, I'm not gonna nuke anyone blah, blah.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Perhaps this will also be the kick in the butt for the west to push for renewables and lower our dependancy of fossil fuels.

It will be very painful for a while but hopefully better for the long term.

 

[Roar87]

Does Russia show respect?

Nah Russia has ****** up a lot in recent years, I absolutely agree, they've been out of order. Maybe we should've had tougher sanctions after the whole poisoning debacle, a strong response from America also.