Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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Amnesia said:
Nobody said it was super amazing, you are just doing what so many others in the thread do and arguing against things I never said.
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:confused:

You said this:

This also explains why Russia has been holding back a lot of its latest tech, incase of NATO involvement.

I am asking how you know this/it doesn't make any sense logically. Why would you hold back your latest tech to make this drag out longer?

So tell me and explain more? I am asking genuinely.
 
ianh said:
At least a year according to most pundits, but in reality probably never whilst Russia is still the aggressor, solely down to the Nuke issue. If however there's a change of command in Russia and the new leadership withdraws all Forces back to the 2014 borders (exremely unlikely right now) I could see NATO/UN being asked to act as a border force, preventing any new Russian attacks in the future.
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In my opinion you are 100% correct. NATO will never go into an active Russian warzone, unless invited by Russia (by whatever reason that may be applicable at the time). Or like you said, Russia withdraws and UN peacekeeping is put into place to allow Ukraine to start to rebuild with additonal security.

The nuclear threat is too great. But this is obviously applicable both ways. Russia wouldn't wander into a NATO warzone for exactly the same reasons NATO won't wander into theirs. Russia still have to consider the nuclear threats of US, UK and France.
 
SideWinder said:
So tell me and explain more? I am asking genuinely.
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I'm not the person you quoted, however if I was Russia and my 3 day invasion turned into a quagmire I'd also hold back some of my best equipment/troops "just in case" NATO decided to do something, because I would have the paranoia that NATO is ALWAYS planning to attack and overthrow us at some point so if I threw all my best Tier 1 units in to Ukraine (rather than just some of them) and lost them and their equipment, then I would believe that NATO might take advantage of my weakness. So as a Russian, even if it takes longer and is more costly overall, I'd still keep some of my best kit/troops back.

Back in reality however "we"in the west all know that NATO wouldn't arbitrarily invade Russia which makes the above seem utterly ridiculous, but then I'm sure we do lots of things which the Russians think is ridiculous too :D
 
Nato troops into Ukraine right now or in the very near future would see Putin going to those who are sympathetic to his cause and say "See, I told you, Nato are not just a defensive force, help me"

Nato may end up fighting more than just Russian troops.
 
NasalHair said:
That does not mean anything many battles have been won but the war was lost. History has a many examples, Russia has no chance in the long run to win, even if the land is taken it will be given back, or Russia will be isolated from the world.
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Russia can call a lot of shots this autumn and winter with many EU countries currently dependent on her natural resources and putting all their eggs in a Russian basket.

And isolated from the EU with its desire to change the demographics of many of its member states to resemble Africa or the middle and far east is no bad thing for a country wanting to remain pretty ethnically pure like Japan and China.
 
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ianh said:
I'm not the person you quoted, however if I was Russia and my 3 day invasion turned into a quagmire I'd also hold back some of my best equipment/troops "just in case" NATO decided to do something, because I would have the paranoia that NATO is ALWAYS planning to attack and overthrow us at some point so if I threw all my best Tier 1 units in to Ukraine (rather than just some of them) and lost them and their equipment, then I would believe that NATO might take advantage of my weakness. So as a Russian, even if it takes longer and is more costly overall, I'd still keep some of my best kit/troops back.

Back in reality however "we"in the west all know that NATO wouldn't arbitrarily invade Russia which makes the above seem utterly ridiculous, but then I'm sure we do lots of things which the Russians think is ridiculous too :D
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Keep back some units, not for NATO…Georgia and similar lower tier actors in conventional warfare.
As per Ukraine but for less cost!
 
*Putin Signs Decree Barring Russian Residents From Transferring Funds Abroad if They Were Received via Russian Company Dividends
 
ianh said:
I'm not the person you quoted, however if I was Russia and my 3 day invasion turned into a quagmire I'd also hold back some of my best equipment/troops "just in case" NATO decided to do something, because I would have the paranoia that NATO is ALWAYS planning to attack and overthrow us at some point so if I threw all my best Tier 1 units in to Ukraine (rather than just some of them) and lost them and their equipment, then I would believe that NATO might take advantage of my weakness. So as a Russian, even if it takes longer and is more costly overall, I'd still keep some of my best kit/troops back.

Back in reality however "we"in the west all know that NATO wouldn't arbitrarily invade Russia which makes the above seem utterly ridiculous, but then I'm sure we do lots of things which the Russians think is ridiculous too :D
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Appreciate the input and adding an explanation. I see what you mean. :)
 
*U.S. and Its Partners Say Russian and Belarusian Sport National Governing Bodies Should Be Suspended From International Sport Federations
*U.S. and Its Partners Say National and International Sports Organizations Should Consider Suspending Broadcasting of Sports Competitions Into Russia and Belarus

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EddScott said:
Nato troops into Ukraine right now or in the very near future would see Putin going to those who are sympathetic to his cause and say "See, I told you, Nato are not just a defensive force, help me"

Nato may end up fighting more than just Russian troops.
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Dunno - don't think either China or India are interested in taking on NATO on Russia's behalf, many of the other/smaller countries who might, such as Iran, have problems of their own enough to keep them from committing much (possibly why some of them are suddenly seeing an up-tick in internal problems).
 
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Minusorange said:
Looks like Kramatorsk will be next big target as the Ukrainian governor has just asked 250,000 people to evacuate
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Slovyansk, Kramatorsk and Bakhmut Ukraine won't want to see fall as there is a significant amount of supplies/equipment and defences Ukraine can't quickly replace or relocate there. But at the same time they aren't well served meeting the Russians head on in fighting in this region.
 
NasalHair said:
That does not mean anything many battles have been won but the war was lost. History has a many examples, Russia has no chance in the long run to win, even if the land is taken it will be given back, or Russia will be isolated from the world.
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I think that's not true if Russia succeeds in subjugating Ukraine within the next decade or two. Russia might then be isolated from NATO countries, but there are a lot of countries that aren't in NATO and that want to buy what Russia sells. Russia is primarily an oil and gas company nowadays. If Russia succeeds in subjugating Ukraine, Russia will probably become an industrial agriculture business too. Oil, gas and food will usually trump political concerns, especially when those councerns are about countries unconnected (in either geographical, social or political terms) to your own and there's no threat to your own. India, for example. It's not under threat from Russia and it's not connected to Ukraine in any way. It's government will hedge a bit while the invasion is in progress, but will continue to buy oil and gas from Russia even then. Or China, whose government doesn't even pretend to care. Two massive countries that account for more than a third of the world (in terms of population) and that will buy what Russia's selling. That's very far from being "isolated from the world". They might hedge a bit in public for the benefit of their own businesses selling to NATO countries, especially their own agriculture businesses (which would then be in a much better position for selling to NATO countries, with Ukraine being removed) but they'll buy what Russia sells.

Isolated politically? Why would the Russian government care? They're running a business. It doesn't have to be popular, just profitable. Besides, it's highly unlikely that Russia will be expelled from the UN or even lose any of its power there. So some countries it doesn't sell things to won't publically speak to it. So what?

I don't think it's entirely a coincidence that the parts of Ukraine Russia is most interested in conquering are the parts with the most oil and gas.

Russia is primarily an oil and gas company. The market for those products is declining (especially in Europe, currently by far Russia's best market) and Russia as it is would decline with it. So it makes sense (in an amoral way) for Russia to steal as much as possible now, while it still has enough money to do so, and use it to make Russia viable as a country without being primarily an oil and gas company. Stealing Ukraine's vast amount of excellent arable land would be part of that, as is stealing as much tech as possible from other countries. Even if Russia currently isn't capable of manufacturing that tech, the knowledge of how to do so is still very valuable. Sure, it might mean that Russian businesses in 2040 are using 2020 tech rather than 2040 tech, but that would be much better for them than using their own 1970s tech in 2040.
 
Excellent post Angilion, very true. One only has to look at how the world still exuberantly trades with China, whilst decrying their alleged human rights abuses and brushing compelling suggestions they covered up a release of the most deadly virus discovered in recent times under the carpet.

It won't be long before your beloved Chinese tat, bought and shown off in a sub forum here, despite sister threads condemning the Chinese for ethnic cleansing and their blatantly stolen and copied tech is sharing your home with fuel sourced from the those the west currently wage a proxy war against.

Once again the evidence is irrefutable that long term stability lies in self sufficiency and a dramatically reduced population level, not unworkable globalisation which is totally contrary to our tribal nature.
 
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