EV prices
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99.99% of my charging is at home at 7.5p per kWh. So roughly 2p per mile. My golf R averaged 24mpg. So roughly saving 35p per mile.
No servicing is required for warranty and cabin filter, brake fluid check suggested every two years.
Brakes should last many years
No clutch, haldex, gears, spark plugs, oil, belts.
A little more tyre usage as 1.8tonnes.
Zero VED.
So there is money to be saved during ownership. But currently very unlikely to save £60k I paid for the car.
Electricity will increase, we will likely see a replacement for VED (once they are happy ICE cars are dying).
But that said, I imagine we will see more than 1p added to petrol for every 1p added to leccy.
This would ofc look different if I drove the golf more efficiently or a more efficient car. But then this is a very quick car and extremely cheap to run compared to similar power ICE cars.
No servicing is required for warranty and cabin filter, brake fluid check suggested every two years.
Brakes should last many years
No clutch, haldex, gears, spark plugs, oil, belts.
A little more tyre usage as 1.8tonnes.
Zero VED.
So there is money to be saved during ownership. But currently very unlikely to save £60k I paid for the car.
Electricity will increase, we will likely see a replacement for VED (once they are happy ICE cars are dying).
But that said, I imagine we will see more than 1p added to petrol for every 1p added to leccy.
This would ofc look different if I drove the golf more efficiently or a more efficient car. But then this is a very quick car and extremely cheap to run compared to similar power ICE cars.
Deleted User 298457
Deleted User 298457
How many miles do you do?I'm not a company, so what else do I base it on?
Apologises for my sarcastic reply, because I actually lease through a work salaray sacrifice scheme. I do about 10,000 miles and that is me and my wife currently sharing a car. On my own about 6,000 as I work remotely but pre pandemic I was doing 12,000 per year. If remote working circumstances change, I have my car leased for 10k per year as a buffer. My wife is doing ~4k miles currently but could end up going back to work and doing ~10k.
Where the EV savings come for me is via leasing at the much reduced BIK. But my wife does not have that luxury and has always bought used. So if she were to buy a used EV, it would never pay for itself at current prices. It is not helpful that she will not consider anything that is not an Audi, Merc, BMW or Mini.
I have actually looked at getting a secondary lease car and can get an EQA for a good price, the problem is wait times. And getting my wife to agree to pay me for it
![[TW]Fox](/data/man-of-honor/2009.png){kind=avatar}
This is a rather important point because the tax situation is such that if you are getting a car through a scheme like this you'd have to be absolutely mad to order anything other than an electric car.
I wonder what proportion of cars taken on these schemes are now electric? If it isn't 100% then I'm not sure I understand why - BMW i4 40e £20 a month tax, BMW 430i, over £500 a month tax. I cannot imagine why anyone would pick the petrol car with those numbers.
Yet again though this is another choice that is made on the basis of savings created entirely by tax treatment. Great for the individual, but it isn't sustainable, so at some point it's going to change.
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Soldato
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Unless something dramatic changes EVs will retain a much higher value into the end of their lifecycle as a vehicle since the salvageable materials contained within them are valuable and becomingly increasingly so.
Depreciation in its simplest form is reducing the value of an asset as it is consumed. So take an ICE car, if its realistically good for 10 years then you should consume its value over 10 years, ie reduce its value by 1/10th each year.
Obviously there is also emotional forces being applied, a 1 year old car will lose more than 10% in normal time since most people would buy a new one if a 1 year old one was only 10% cheaper.
So market depreciation is higher and eventually ends up at the same point.
Most will have some residual (minimum value) so thats taken into account in the market value.
EVs are different, they should have a much longer life based on what we know now, plus much higher residual value. The ending residual value has to be compared to the initial premium.
If its £10k more expensive to buy, but will hold £10k more value at the end the real difference is just outlay to afford to buy it, plus associated finance costs.
The lifetime "cost" of the vehicle would be the same.
BUT if they last longer then the annual depreciation would be a lower % and hence cheaper to fund annually. (Still bearing in mind financing)
Comparing costs of ICE vs EV right now with a completely messed up second had car market is pointless, its not going to remain so forever.
Car prices will adjust and fix themselves and at that point they will all see adjusted market value and hence individual depreciation.
Cost per mile, ease of use, tax etc are all irrelevant unless your a climate change denier. We simply have to transition away from fossil fuels for private transport.
Depreciation in its simplest form is reducing the value of an asset as it is consumed. So take an ICE car, if its realistically good for 10 years then you should consume its value over 10 years, ie reduce its value by 1/10th each year.
Obviously there is also emotional forces being applied, a 1 year old car will lose more than 10% in normal time since most people would buy a new one if a 1 year old one was only 10% cheaper.
So market depreciation is higher and eventually ends up at the same point.
Most will have some residual (minimum value) so thats taken into account in the market value.
EVs are different, they should have a much longer life based on what we know now, plus much higher residual value. The ending residual value has to be compared to the initial premium.
If its £10k more expensive to buy, but will hold £10k more value at the end the real difference is just outlay to afford to buy it, plus associated finance costs.
The lifetime "cost" of the vehicle would be the same.
BUT if they last longer then the annual depreciation would be a lower % and hence cheaper to fund annually. (Still bearing in mind financing)
Comparing costs of ICE vs EV right now with a completely messed up second had car market is pointless, its not going to remain so forever.
Car prices will adjust and fix themselves and at that point they will all see adjusted market value and hence individual depreciation.
Cost per mile, ease of use, tax etc are all irrelevant unless your a climate change denier. We simply have to transition away from fossil fuels for private transport.
Show me a 10 year old car with a value of zero.
The actual timescale is much longer than this and the practical effect of that is almost no car owner will see the value of a car they buy reach zero during their ownership.
I don't really see why an EV will have a 'much longer life ' either? The only major difference is the engine and few cars are scrapped only because the engine doesn't work.
Both EV and ICE cars will last far beyond the requirements of most owners.
As I said in the post, I specifically looked for the most expensive EV charger near me for those calculations. I have never used that charger and doubt I ever will, a more realistic price would be 30p per kWh.
Using that in the same calculation as before gives 6.6p per mile.
Cost of petrol - VAT and duty is around 103p per litre so the same 50mpg car as before would give 9.36p per mile.
So, no, the base fuel isn't cheaper. There's more variability in the price of EV charging so it's possible to find more expensive and cheaper examples.
edit: just to be clear, I'm simply calculating the current base fuel cost here. I'm not saying that there won't be any additional tax or duty on it in future. Although I think a mileage charge is much more likely than taxes on fuel.
This is based on my actual usage figures. I've driven nearly 3000km in 4 months so I'm not able to include a full year of stats yet. (I feel like I was quite generous giving the petrol car 50mpg average too.)
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Deleted User 298457
Deleted User 298457
I think you've chosen the most expensive kWh rate and the least realistic mpg. Unless Corsas have got crazy efficient in recent years, I don't know any returning an average of 50mpg in normal driving.
Soldato
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I didn't say they would did I? I said "Most will have some residual (minimum value)"
Most are worth a low percentage at 10 years, realistically pegged to a cost of a large repair. With in many cases the market value being unrelated to initial cost, in fact higher cost vehicles tend to end up more expensive to run and often end up lower in value than economic cheaper/easier to fix ones.
Whilst the main engine itself is far more reliable now than they once were many of the supporting components end up as expensive fixes, turbos, ECUs, immobiliser faults etc
At this point its just a gamble. Spend high hundreds on a turbo replacement where everything else is still 10+ years old or gamble similar money on a newer "better" car.
The average age of a scrapped car is 14 years, anecdotal of course but most of the people I know who try to run old cars say they are one large bill from scrapping and they will just buy another old car when this one dies, and they do.
Often quoted a lot for potential investigation most just go meh, move on.
EVs have far less to go wrong in regards the main power drive and as such right now the useful expected life is longer. Admittedly the sample size is low, it will become far clearer in years to come when more EVs approach end of life, as to where that realistically is.
It may ultimately end up the same although with completely different techs that would be somewhat of a coincidence.
If you go back to the sensible times before the current second had car madness they old "mainstream" EVs still commanded very good money. Sure some is (was) supply and demand, but they haven't showed any signs yet of having values crash.
Agree, most vehicles could last beyond peoples requirements, but complexity and being able to pickup a newer one for still negligible value in effect creates an end of life point due to market economics and perception.
Plus of course ICE has continued to get better and as such eventually you can upgrade for very low money.
ICA bangernomics wont apply to EV unless something changes. ICE become virtually valueless since their materials are practically worthless, EVs unless something changes will not.
I suspect you going to see significant increases in EV recharge point costs imminently.
Businesses are not price capped and with the likely capped price going to around 55p (inv VAT) in October they arent going to be selling those units at 30p for long
Soldato
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Which equivalent car is that?
Ah, OK. If you only use summer miles your numbers will be very skewed. What EV do you have as it will generally lose ~20% - 25% during colder climates? Obvioulsy the same will apply to the ICE vehice.
I'm working on a typical mid sized SUV such as an X1, X3, Q3 or GLC giving ~40mpg. While performance is not remotely close that would be what I would be driving now if it weren't an I-Pace.
Yeh this confuses me too assuming old EVs are some how more desirable then old ICE.
My 11 year ICE has the same size fuel tank as when it was new. An 11yr old EV / appliance is going to be pretty aged versus what’s available in 2032 and no one’s really gonna want old batteries car. Aren’t iPhones are good example of e-waste consumer behaviour.
Salary sacrifice and low BIK. Combined with no fuel duty is the real drive for EV growth right now. But the increasing electricity prices is really starting to dent the running cost benefit
So just checked NHS Fleet and I can actually lease two vehicles as I am in the higher tax bracket. I can get a Polestar 2 RWD LR for £360 per month, or the standard range for £344. Wait times are 7-8 months from what I can see on a quick Google. So can't see why my wife would spend £25k on an ICE when I can get a very good EV for a lot less and it includes servicing, tax, tyres, insurance and roadside assitance etc. It does impact pension but I could aks my wife to compensate me
Only problem is the wait times as my wife was thinking Oct at the latest. Though she is insured on her Mothers iX20 and she could use it if required. As TWFox and Simon said above, who in there right mind would not use this option and go EV.
Man maths FTW
Only problem is the wait times as my wife was thinking Oct at the latest. Though she is insured on her Mothers iX20 and she could use it if required. As TWFox and Simon said above, who in there right mind would not use this option and go EV.
Man maths FTW
Soldato
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NHS will be nailing your pension then, try to look passed that low month. The £25k ICE is worth something at the end unlike a lease.
Soldato
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The old Evs being more desirable isnt really the fact they are an EV, its that we know the value of the materials (assuming no change) will remain high and lots of people only change their old car when it breaks.
Its hard to predict whats the realistic scrappage point for EVs, not enough data yet. We know that ICE is around 14 years, by then basically worthless since you can get newer for almost no money and often repair bills exceed the value of the car.
The equation will be different for EV, since the repair bill wont exceed the value of the car.
And yes totally there always has to be a hard stop where stuff has evolved so much that even in great condition old tech loses value. Some of that of course depends on tech progression, there could be loads, or there could be little.
I think comparing current EVs is too early, they are only just getting going in reality so too early to settle down to a norm.
Iphones agree they basically demonstrate this as well, the tech advances enough that the jump is worth doing. Although TBH I think from about 6 or 7 to today I prefer the older versions. Apple somewhat manipulate this as well by withdrawing upgrades etc, plus they had frankly daft battery replacement costs.
Again why would someone spend £150 replacing a battery on a phone worth £125.
And totally agree on the pricing and running costs, with the October costs incoming they are going to immediately put up costs by 50-60% per mile for EV.
Tax is driving (pun intended) the change for sure, its never been any different, switch to dirty diesel, tax, switch to smaller engines/more efficient, tax.
Its the easiest way to materially effect business behaviour.
I'd like to clarify that this is NOT what I said - my point was about choosing EV or ICE after making the decision to use a scheme like this. At this point, EV is the obvious choice. However there are many considerations to make before choosing whether you want to get a car on a scheme like this - it requires careful thought, particularly with regards to the effect it will have on your pension.
How many of us diesel owners are still really happy we bought cars in markets incentivised to pick diesel?
That went well, didn't it.
The same discussions we have now about EV were had about diesel 10-15 years ago. People pointing to sales volumes to demonstrate how great diesel was, how Co2 emissions were lower, etc etc. When of course the reality is that diesel cars only make sense in an environment where tax is used to make them appealing - either through CO2 based excise duty or by creating an environment of high fuel prices to incentivise more efficient cars.