1930s Semi Refurb - Part 2 of ... (Edition: Boiler/Water Tank Relocation)

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jpaul said:
Have/did you also consider a pumped shower .. I had feared my parents were being ripped off installing that since it is difficult to evaluate it's subjective impact.
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No, my pressure /flow is pretty damned good so don't need a pump. I'm not sure in line pumps even are a great idea on a pressurised cylinder.

Would be better sorting out at source if you could e.g. Increase cold main size or pipework in house feeding to tank.
 
Buffman said:
Just for clarity, an unvented cylinder doesn't "give you pressure" you need to have sufficient mains pressure from your cold tap, and that will dictate how good you get a return.


My unvented cylinder is very good. Weirdly I've got a main 25mm incoming, but it's been dropped immediately to 15mm pipe across the house. I asked my plumber if its worth changing to 22mm but he indicated its not (i kept asking the Q as I was concerned!)
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You need to ensure the bore of internal pipe work is similar or larger to the main feed (and meter). If its less you lose flow, a fact that some plumbers consider only related to pressure not a combination of bore and pressure. I had the same in our house where plumbers rejected a mains supply pipe increase (I wanted to got 32 mm which is 26mm ID) and new internal feed all in favour of garage fitted pressure collectors and pumps!

So if you've got 25mm MDPE pipe then its ID is around 20mm so you need 22mm copper which has a similar internal bore in the house as much as possible. Also ensure that any isolator valves are full bore, not the usual ones with very small bore.

For example when we upgraded our outside main to 32mm MDPE (~26mm ID) I made sure the new internal pipework and was 28mm copper from that (with large valves/stopcock) until it split down for the hot and various cold feeds at 22mm and then 15mm only for taps where ultimate flow is not important. The result is flow the neighbours and plumbers marvel at and wonder where the other pumps are :D
 
How does the heating system pipe diameter impact the ability to put in bigger radiatrors for a heat pump or (optimal low temp) condensing boiler setup
... currently have this paltry microbore stuff, which probably needs a lot of pump pressure to push the water through.
 
jonneymendoza said:
Do you have any plans to use a heat pump?
. If so, you may need to start planning for that as you're end game and that would be insulating your property externally which could add up to 20cm thickness to you're walls and to install larger radiators.
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I would love to use one, especially as I can over spec everything at this stage. Unfortunately costs were totally nonsense. I may do underfloor heating in the living/dining room as it'll be an engineered oak floor, but TBC...

sigma said:
Is this the house you paid something like £900k for? In a Tier 1 area? Seems like a lot of money for a semi. Or is that normal London prices these days?

Edit: just had a look on Rightmove, yeah, it's the going price for semis in London.
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Yeah 860k. I'm 20 mins from London so I just go there for lunch and meetings :D. Zone 4 of some areas probably comparable, this place could be fractionally more expensive...

jpaul said:
cylinder gives you the mains pressure, if you need to keep the flow for a higher up shower you still need a pump,
parents just had pressurized tank (loosing expansion in loft) and had a mira shower pump transforming previous system.
.
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Buffman said:
Just for clarity, an unvented cylinder doesn't "give you pressure" you need to have sufficient mains pressure from your cold tap, and that will dictate how good you get a return.


My unvented cylinder is very good. Weirdly I've got a main 25mm incoming, but it's been dropped immediately to 15mm pipe across the house. I asked my plumber if its worth changing to 22mm but he indicated its not (i kept asking the Q as I was concerned!)
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The first heating engineer used similar language to jpaul. He said the Megaflos use a baffle connected to the water main (versus a header tank/head of water creating the pressure) - so colloquially "mains pressure hot water". I think this is instead of "mavity fed hot water" which is literally a crappy trickle.

jpaul said:
Have/did you also consider a pumped shower .. I had feared my parents were being ripped off installing that since it is difficult to evaluate it's subjective impact.
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I had a pumped shower on an F&E tank system in my old place, which is what I had here (till the pump broke on day 1). I think the pumped shower is critical for F&E systems versus system boilers + unvented cylinders. I don't think you'd need a pump on an unvented/mains pressure system.
 
Hi guys,

The first "proper" quote has come in. He recommended the following:

* Vaillant EcoFit Pure 618
* 250l Stelflow Unvented Cylinder

I won't give the breakdown as its a nonesense quote with loads of random discounts at the end, but total price was £6317.

This includes renewing the pipework as per the plan in post #10.

He has done a separate quote which is an extra £160 for an EcoFit Pure 625.

What do you all think?
 
dLockers said:
Hi guys,

The first "proper" quote has come in. He recommended the following:

* Vaillant EcoFit Pure 618
* 250l Stelflow Unvented Cylinder

I won't give the breakdown as its a nonesense quote with loads of random discounts at the end, but total price was £6317.

This includes renewing the pipework as per the plan in post #10.

He has done a separate quote which is an extra £160 for an EcoFit Pure 625.

What do you all think?
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I guess the pure 625 just stores more hot water?
 
jonneymendoza said:
Is the goverment still going ahead of banning gas boilers?

www.greenmatch.co.uk

UK Gas Boiler Ban - In Effect from 2025 or 2035?

Gas boilers in the UK are going to be phased out but will the ban actually come into affect? Learn everything you need to know in our guide.
www.greenmatch.co.uk www.greenmatch.co.uk

Seems like we will all have to tear out our boilers in 10 years or so!
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It's crazy. In Denmark they have 70% biogas in their gas network.

Having said that, I was speaking to someone in the industry earlier today. His opinion was that keeping the gas network running as-is leads to energy complacency and it is therefore a good thing. I'm inclined to agree with him.
 
dirtychinchilla said:
It's crazy. In Denmark they have 70% biogas in their gas network.

Having said that, I was speaking to someone in the industry earlier today. His opinion was that keeping the gas network running as-is leads to energy complacency and it is therefore a good thing. I'm inclined to agree with him.
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What do you mean?

Do you think its crazy we should abandon gas boilers? or we should keep them?

Air Source heat pumps is a option but its very expensive to do as you to to properly insulate your property , get massive radiators, redo pipe work and install the thing and hope that it is not a loud machine that annoys your neighbours...

It also doesnt seem to be as efficient as a combi boiler where it is only active when you use the heating or hot water.
 
jonneymendoza said:
What do you mean?

Do you think its crazy we should abandon gas boilers? or we should keep them?

Air Source heat pumps is a option but its very expensive to do as you to to properly insulate your property , get massive radiators, redo pipe work and install the thing and hope that it is not a loud machine that annoys your neighbours...

It also doesnt seem to be as efficient as a combi boiler where it is only active when you use the heating or hot water.
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I think it's a bit crazy that we abandon gas when we can add biofuel to it. We're also going to rely on gas-fired power stations, which are about 40% efficient. That's idiotic.

ASHP is very expensive. I'm personally not a fan of it, but I would be happy to have a heat pump if I didn't have to pay for it, and for the refurbishment it would require.

They're super efficient. You just have to use them correctly. They work very well with stored hot water.

This guy I was speaking to was making the point that if we just stay on gas boilers, people have minimal incentive to improve their building's energy consumption. This would definitely have been true had energy prices not risen.
 
dirtychinchilla said:
I don't understand why you'd want a hot water cylinder
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I read this and ignored but then came back to it. Good question. It was mainly because I'd like to run the heating coil on electricity once I get solar. However, realistically that could be a long way off.

Chaps - should I just get a combi? I mean, the world is ending anyway, it'll save me a fortune in capital right now, and I can delete the tank.
 
Having a hot water tank close to main bathroom (as had in last property) does add to quality of life in the morning ... versus direct heat combi
you can run a basin of water, or shower without waiting for 10+metres of piping to warm which happens with the current property (combi downstairs in kitchen),
(****** me off so much, have even been known to take a bowl of water upstairs to bathroom, if I'm in kitchen doing breakfast and water is already running hot there)

Usually turn the pre-heat off on the combi (how much gas does that use for sustaining) and it takes 6odd litres of water before hot water in the kitchen.

Tanks costs more to install (£1 inc install) , but would avoid the inefficiency of using the the combi erratically too (post purge/cool-down)
 
I hear all @jpaul says, but for other taps in the house it's no different. And that assumes you can fit the tank close to the main bathroom; in our house it's equidistant from everywhere meaning 5-10m pipe runs anyhow.

Having returned from a holiday cottage with a combi I'd say go that route. Unlimited hot water is a real benefit.
 
dLockers said:
Hi folks,

Part two of the series of me refurbing my 1930s semi. This time... boiler.

I imagine this beasty from the 1980s still fully functions, however I had budgeted for a replacement and I knew the heating system was due for an overall as the rads were clearly 30+ years old, and the pipework is mostly exposed (or poorly boxed in).

I had a chap around earlier who quoted "roughly" 7 to 8k to rip this lot out, and fit a new boiler and megaflo cylinder in the attic. He'd run a gas main up the outside of the house and then connect into the existing system. This seems a lot but not bonkers for where I live. However it gave me food for thought (and was the first time I ever went into the attic since buying the house). Namely I was concerned at having an all singing, all dancing system, connected to my garbage radiators and exposed pipework that I want to delete.

What I am considering is --
  • Image 1 - Leave the boiler where it is. It is pretty much dead space anyway (under the stairs, door opens in front of it)
  • Image 2 - Re-new the cold feed via the back of the units as opposed to "up and over" the kitchen window
  • Image 3 - To enable my bathroom project move the tank into the loft, but broadly in the same physical location, just a floor up
  • Potential wild card - get a free weekend to re-run all of the downstairs rad pipework under the floor and into the attic, and likewise, re-run all of the upstairs pipework into the attic, so that in whatever scenario, all the rads/pipework is renewed at the same time?
So that means a new standard F&E type boiler, with a new unvented cylinder.

Question:
1. Is this silly? Should I be considering moving the boiler to a different room, given all of the pipework runs to the opposite side of the house? Is there a clever framework to work out the best place to put these things?
2. If keeping the same location, is it permissible? The flu is super low (hip height) at the moment
3. What random pipework am I likely to uncover in all of these boxing in sections (in the kitchen specifically?). Gas comes in via the left hand side as the meter is only about a meter away.
4. Can I easily spur off of the hot water tank if it was in the loft (to enable my new bathroom?)
5. Do I need to consider the placement of pipes in the attic if I am going to do a loft conversion (unlikely in the next 5 years) - i.e. should I run them through the joists or would a loft conversion mean new joists anyway?
6. Is getting a weekend to run a new 'ring main' (whatever the plumbing equivalent is) to do the downstairs rads (only 8 rads total I think) time worth spent BEFORE getting the boiler/tank replaced?

Image 1
BCeFJWo.jpeg
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CLEAN YOUR HOOVER :mad:
 
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